Help with 831-E wiring

[Thephoneman]

3 line version.  Went to add in a jackpot bell and replaced the 18 on beau plug (one wire at a time), and now I'm having all sorts of issues that I didn't have before.  Almost certain a wire got broken or have a short as I'm not getting the 3 line to light in the upper unit and not getting payouts unless I hold the coin switch closed. Coin accepted light stays on all the time.  I've searched thru the bingo.cdyn.com schematic list and while most of the 831 (and ballys of that era) have the same wiring,  there are a few minor differences.  For example,  mine has no wire on pin 5 (big long pin) on either side, yetnon of the schematics I've seen have that pin open.  Like I said i went 1 for 1 on the wires so the odds of a miss pin are reduced. Just trying to verify all my connections before I start tracing for broken wires.

[wolftalk]

831-E is a 22 stop version of the game made for circus circus.

bally released the 831-H with the same stuff except the belly glass (i.e. 22 stop game with same reel tapes, reel wiper wiring, index discs, payout counter/wiring as the 831-E).

I do have the 831-H schem, but it's not processed yet.  The plug wiring is the same as the 831-F.  The main difference from the 831-F is the reel tape symbols, reel wiring and the melon relay (831-F) is a bar relay on the 831-H.

pin 5 was wire 63-2, which was the power wire for some meters.  It connects to wire 70 when the door is closed, so the idea was when the door is open, the meters are disconnected.

it's possible circus circus didn't need it, but usually the wire is still there so bally didn't need to make changes to the wiring bundles.  Wasn't worth saving a few pennies to not install an unused wire.

do you have any meters on the reel mech?  Usually the wires for them are tied off on the left side of the reel mech above the clock.

[Thephoneman]

I'll have to double check but I think they've been removed.  I've been tied up with another project but will be getting back to this one once I get that wrapped up. I'll check that schematic for the 831 f plug and see if i crossed something.  I was in there kinda deep and may have tugged to much and pulled something inside the insulation. Have checked all the switches from the hopper to the upper and all read good.  I'll keep you posted once I get back into it (hopefully this weekend). If you have any other suggestions I'll take em.  Thanks!

[wolftalk]

if you have to push the coin switch down to get payouts and the only thing ya did was replace the 18 pin reel mech plug, the wire 70 connection is probably not working.

that still doesn't fully explain things as payout just needs the coin switch up to connect wire 30 -> 74-1 -> 91-6 -> 60-1 -> 63-3 -> etc thru reels and payout counter traces to payout relay coil.   You'd need something wrong in the 74-1 to 60-1 part of that circuit path also.

maybe you have 74-1 and 71-2 swapped on the plug?

the coin relay and payout relay control the coin accepted light.  Coin accepted should turn off when you pull the handle and the coin relay mechanically resets.  If it doesn't, either the coin relay is not staying latched, the switch is stuck closed or you have a short onto wire 38-1 ... but 38-1 is on the 24 pin reel mech plug.

easy thing is pull the reels and manually reset the coil relay.  Put the reels back in and see if it trips without doing anything.

[Thephoneman]

if you have to push the coin switch down to get payouts and the only thing ya did was replace the 18 pin reel mech plug, the wire 70 connection is probably not working.

that still doesn't fully explain things as payout just needs the coin switch up to connect wire 30 -> 74-1 -> 91-6 -> 60-1 -> 63-3 -> etc thru reels and payout counter traces to payout relay coil.   You'd need something wrong in the 74-1 to 60-1 part of that circuit path also.

maybe you have 74-1 and 71-2 swapped on the plug?

the coin relay and payout relay control the coin accepted light.  Coin accepted should turn off when you pull the handle and the coin relay mechanically resets.  If it doesn't, either the coin relay is not staying latched, the switch is stuck closed or you have a short onto wire 38-1 ... but 38-1 is on the 24 pin reel mech plug.

easy thing is pull the reels and manually reset the coil relay.  Put the reels back in and see if it trips without doing anything.

Thank you for the suggestions on where to start looking.  I will let you know what I find once I get back in there.

[Thephoneman]

So here's where I'm at.  Checked the 18 pin plug and all the wires matched with the 831 f like wolftalk mentioned.  They is a total out meter. Had to adjust a switch on the left side (or/gr and gy/gr). Didn't get to the 24 pin tonight.  Getting winter paid. Coin accepted and insert coin lights on.  Coins not registering.  Will dive in more tomorrow.  Some reason #14 keeps pushing back,  might such it to a different pin on each side. 

[Thephoneman]

So there is definitely a short or some wires crossed. I'm getting the coins to register and all 3 lines lighting (improvement) but the first coin is staying on (so first coin in lights up the 2nd line, 2nd coin lights up 3 rd one) Sounds and appears that the coin relay coil is staying hot.  Not paying on any wins.  I'm also getting a coil clicking up top, even when the reels are out.  So I'll have to start chasing that.  So last question is what wires of any should be reading to ground.  I'll hang up and listen. 

[wolftalk]

the 1st coin lines on the upper glass are always on unless you get the jackpot on line 2 or 3.

the 1st coin line on the reel glass is always on.

make sure the coin relay and handle release relay are working right first.  After you spin, the coin relay should be reset ("insert coin" light on) and the handle should be locked.

if that's ok, when you hold down the coin switch the coin relay should trip ("coin accepted" light turns on) and the line unit in the top compartment should reset so only line 1 is lit.  A line unit reset relay in the top compartment is also powered, but you may not notice it.

when you let go of the coin switch and it goes up, the handle release relay should trip to unlock the handle.

nothing else should happen at this point.

if you hold down the coil switch again, you may hear the line step-up relay int he top compartment power, but nothing else should happen until you let the coin switch go back up.  At that time, the line unit should step up and the 2nd line lights turn on.

if your handle release or coin relay is tripped, payout is disabled ...

[Thephoneman]

the 1st coin lines on the upper glass are always on unless you get the jackpot on line 2 or 3.

the 1st coin line on the reel glass is always on.

make sure the coin relay and handle release relay are working right first.  After you spin, the coin relay should be reset ("insert coin" light on) and the handle should be locked.

if that's ok, when you hold down the coin switch the coin relay should trip ("coin accepted" light turns on) and the line unit in the top compartment should reset so only line 1 is lit.  A line unit reset relay in the top compartment is also powered, but you may not notice it.

when you let go of the coin switch and it goes up, the handle release relay should trip to unlock the handle.

nothing else should happen at this point.

if you hold down the coil switch again, you may hear the line step-up relay int he top compartment power, but nothing else should happen until you let the coin switch go back up.  At that time, the line unit should step up and the 2nd line lights turn on.

if your handle release or coin relay is tripped, payout is disabled ...

gotcha. The coin relay is still tripped. Going to try to get in there a little later

[wolftalk]

post a pic of your coin relay or email a highest-resolution "full size" image to slotpics@cdyn.com.  A pic of the entire left side of the reel mech is ideal.

there's an unedited and poorly planned video of a coin relay in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/ ... tho your switch blades should look a little different (the blade on the right end in the video someone added).

[Thephoneman]

Here is the left side as requested.

[wolftalk]

the switch adjusts look ok assuming the switch stacks aren't twisted enough that blades are touching something metal like the torsion spring end on the actuator behind the stacks.

double wires are fine ... the wire daisy chains elsewhere, so there's double wires at all points except the two ends of daisy chains.  The schem doesn't show double wires, where plug connections are or tell you the order things are daisy chained together when there's more than three things connected.

next step is find out why the coin relay is tripping.  Easiest thing is stick paper between some switch contacts to figure out which circuit path is causing the problem.

referring to the 831-C schem, ya wanna know if the handle switch path or the line unit reset relay path is doing it ... or neither and you have a short.

quick thing is stick paper between the contact on the handle release relay with wires 23-1 and 21-1 (see color chart on schem to get the blue/yellow and blue/red wire colors from the ids). You can also yank the reels, manually trip the handle release relay so 23-1 is disconnected from 21-1, reset the coin relay and shove the reels back in.  If the coin relay doesn't trip, either the coin switch has a problem or the 23-1 wire is shorted.

if the coin relay still trips when isolating the handle release circuit, stick paper in the line unit reset relay switches to make sure 58 is disconnected from 21-1 ... and verify the plug to the top board is in right.  You could also just pull out the plug.

if ya want to be scientific, yank the reels and make sure the 21-1 wire has no almost zero ohm path to wire 30 when the coin relay is reset.

make sense?

[Thephoneman]

23-1 reads to the chasis on contunity. I tripped the handle relay and put the reels back in with the coin relay untripped. Nothing happened except for the buzz from the coil in the upper unit.  Assuming I'm not supposed to have contunity from 23-1 to ground, that appears to be my next move.

[Thephoneman]

So when I push down on the coin switch,  the beeping on my meter stops. Wiring on coin switch is 3 wires (2 yellow on far end,  blue/yellow middle and orange green on end closest to the coin drop). It's that correct?

[Thephoneman]

So I had replaced the coin switch as part of my earlier diagnosing. Seems that switch was set up different so it was queued wrong. Old switch back in. Did hit and pay but now it's not registering the coins or resetting the  upper unit when I insert coin.  At least I'm getting closer.  If I manually trip the coin relay I can add the 2 extra coins. But the initial coin went unlock it.   

[wolftalk]

So I had replaced the coin switch as part of my earlier diagnosing. Seems that switch was set up different so it was queued wrong. Old switch back in. Did hit and pay but now it's not registering the coins or resetting the  upper unit when I insert coin.  At least I'm getting closer.  If I manually trip the coin relay I can add the 2 extra coins. But the initial coin went unlock it.   

the switches have common, normally closed (NC) and normally open (NO) lugs.  Ya want yellow wire 30 on the common and orange/green wire 74-1 on the NC.  23-1 goes on the NO.

if the switch isn't labelled, you can poke around with a ohmeter/continuity tester to figure it out.  CO connects to NC when the switch tripwire is up.  CO connects to NO when the tripwire is down.  There's never a connection between NC and NO.

if 2nd and 3rd coins are stepping the line unit and the game pays, your switch is probably wired right.  The coin relay not tripping - assuming the coil is good - would be the 23-1 -> 21-1 switch on the handle release relay or the 21-1 -> 58-6 switch on the coin relay ... or a plug connection.

if the first coin resets the line unit but doesn't trip the coin relay, it's either the 21-1 -> 58-6 switch or the plug connection to the reels for the 21-1 wire - or the coin relay coil is bad or there's a busted wire.

[Thephoneman]

After it completes a spin and I put coins in they go right to the hopper and do not reset the line or unlock anything.  I have to physically tripping the relays, then everything works fine.  I'll check those things you mentioned when I get to if after work.

[Thephoneman]

the 23-1 -> 21-1 switch on the handle release relay

That was it.  Just a teensy adjustment and we're back in business. Thank you so much Wolftalk