Bally 809-N, Questions and Troubleshooting

[Billiardsnit]

Stepped out of my comfort zone and picked up this 809-N MT-12238. I am used to working on Circuit boards and such of newer machines but the price was right and it looked like a fun project. I think I might have bought a thrown together machine with random parts.

Guy I bought it from said it was working, and then the hopper suddenly started dumping coins and then quit working after (Payout timer maxed out probably). Got it home and fired it up, it will accept coins but does not cut off at 5. Hopper never pays out, but occasionally does a quick spin to stir the coins up I guess. Coin in/coin accepted light never illuminates. Upon pulling the unit behind the top glass, it appears the JP Reset solenoid was damaged at one point and is completely gone with wires just hanging there, and the Odds unit solenoids both look black. B-27-1300 solenoid that actuates the ratcheting plastic gear shows about 6.8ohms while the identical solenoid on the Jackpot Count unit shows around 13ohms.

Reels were sluggish and not all stopping at the correct time. At some point in this things life, someone lubed it up with grease or a paraffin based oil and some of the parts were seemingly glued together. I completely disassembled the reel assembly, removed copious amounts of Waxed up grease. Reassembled everything and lubed with the correct oil. All those bits are smooth as butter now and the timing is correct.
Same thing with the hopper payout/coin out assembly. I disassembled the entire payout mechanism, removed all the wax and everything spins as it should as far as I can tell. 

Payout table is for a triple bar machine, but the reels have MGM film tape and MGM Lions on them instead of bars. Does anyone have either the top glass with pay tables for MGM Reels, or a set of Reels with triple bars? I assume I could make things work for either.

This machine should attempt to do some form of payout when the correct combination of contacts happen on the back of the reel unit or will it not pay out anything without a functioning odds unit?

[wolftalk]

around 13-14 ohms is right for a B-27-1300 ... take the one from the jackpot unit and put it on the odds unit.  The jackpot unit is not needed ... it just controls a jackpot meter that you probably don't have.

the existing coil is okay tho ... it's not supposed to be held powered, so if it's too powerful for requirements the worst that happens is the coil stop is getting slammed harder than it needs to be.

mashup machines are pretty common, and often it's just the serial number plate that's swapped on.  The machines needed a serial number to be sold, and since some states have a "legal after 25 years" rule, swapping on a plate with an older date was a typical workaround.

ignoring the specifics of the reel wiring and any associated relays (e.g. bars match relays, plum relays, etc.), most 809 machines have very similar circuits, so you can look at a schematic for any of them.  The paper for an 809-N and others is freely accessible on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/.   809-B is a triple bar machine and the m-220-[758-760] reel tapes would be pretty common.  With the schem, you'll resolve your lamp issue quickly.

as ya pointed out, your glass and tapes don't match and neither are correct for an 809-N which was a "lightning" machine that only had BAR, BAR/5, 7 and blanks.  I wouldn't put the game back to a lightning as most people prefer games with higher hit frequency (more frequent but smaller pays).

there should be codes stamped into the slotted metal reel index discs ... what are they? 

I have tapes for a triple bar machine ... but need your index disc codes to see if they can be used.  Looks like the tapes came from an 847, so matching index discs would be p-484-[935-938]

[Billiardsnit]

around 13-14 ohms is right for a B-27-1300 ... take the one from the jackpot unit and put it on the odds unit.  The jackpot unit is not needed ... it just controls a jackpot meter that you probably don't have.

the existing coil is okay tho ... it's not supposed to be held powered, so if it's too powerful for requirements the worst that happens is the coil stop is getting slammed harder than it needs to be.

mashup machines are pretty common, and often it's just the serial number plate that's swapped on.  The machines needed a serial number to be sold, and since some states have a "legal after 25 years" rule, swapping on a plate with an older date was a typical workaround.

ignoring the specifics of the reel wiring and any associated relays (e.g. bars match relays, plum relays, etc.), most 809 machines have very similar circuits, so you can look at a schematic for any of them.  The paper for an 809-N and others is freely accessible on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/.   809-B is a triple bar machine and the m-220-[758-760] reel tapes would be pretty common.  With the schem, you'll resolve your lamp issue quickly.

as ya pointed out, your glass and tapes don't match and neither are correct for an 809-N which was a "lightning" machine that only had BAR, BAR/5, 7 and blanks.  I wouldn't put the game back to a lightning as most people prefer games with higher hit frequency (more frequent but smaller pays).

there should be codes stamped into the slotted metal reel index discs ... what are they? 

I have tapes for a triple bar machine ... but need your index disc codes to see if they can be used.  Looks like the tapes came from an 847, so matching index discs would be p-484-[935-938]

My top unit with lights is marked 822 - It has an odds unit, JP count unit, JP lock up relay, and 5x multiplier unit. The reels have 25 symbols each, and codes are as follows - Reel 1 584-27S - Reel 2 584-27S - Reel 3 584-28S. 12 MGM Film Tapes on Reel #1, 1 on Reel #2, 3 on reel #3. 1 MGM Lion on each Reel signifying a jackpot I'd assume. Rest of the symbols are Bells, Cherries, Oranges, and Plums with no blanks.

There is a paper cap associated with the Delay solenoid in the hopper. I'd assume that has went dead but is it needed?

The plastic gear in my odds unit has a missing tooth, but it looks like it was part of the design, not a failure. Currently, I can click the odds unit 4 times before it spins and triggers the leaf switches the other direction.

[wolftalk]

My top unit with lights is marked 822 - It has an odds unit, JP count unit, JP lock up relay, and 5x multiplier unit. The reels have 25 symbols each, and codes are as follows - Reel 1 584-27S - Reel 2 584-27S - Reel 3 584-28S. 12 MGM Film Tapes on Reel #1, 1 on Reel #2, 3 on reel #3. 1 MGM Lion on each Reel signifying a jackpot I'd assume. Rest of the symbols are Bells, Cherries, Oranges, and Plums with no blanks.

dunno what the 822 is supposed to mean.  Bally model 822 is a bingo pinball machine "Big Wheel".

the P-584-[27,27,28] index discs were used on 3-line and 5-line machines.  Unfortunately, I'm missing the page with the index disc definitions, but it's not a big deal.  My information also stops in the mid-1970's, so the discs may have been used again.

the 831-5Z was a 3-line-pay for the mgm casino in reno.  A reel 1 tape that went with it was M-225-181.

the 873-4ZR was mgm reno 5-line 1767 way machine with reel 1 tape M-225-225.

you could peek at the reel 1 part number by uncrimping and lifting out the top of the reel tape.  It's printed on the underlapped area of the end of the tape (see https://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=46429.0 for example).

got a picture of the wiring on the reel 3 wiper board and the edge of the reel 3 wipers showing which fingers are connected together?

unless the machine was produced after my docs end, the game was created from parts.  To see if it's a professional conversion for casino use, would need to look at the pay table and get the symbols on all three reels in order from top of tape down (or the tape part numbers so I can look up the tape definitions), then the payback percentage for the machine can be calculated.

There is a paper cap associated with the Delay solenoid in the hopper. I'd assume that has went dead but is it needed?

delay relay electrolytic cap is 30uF, 250V.   Don't put it in backwards :-)   There's also a resistor and diode in the circuit.  A 1N4004 or 1N4007 is fine.  The resistor is usually 47 ohm, 1W.

when the delay relay doesn't work, the  will shut down after a few coins are ejected on a payout.  If your delay relay is being used and isn't just a leftover from whatever hopper was used, there will be a cam stacked above the ratchet on the payout counter and a microswitch operated by notches in the cam.

it's possible to disable the delay relay stuff ... it's there to shut the machine down if the payout counter is not stepping during payout so the entire contents of the hopper aren't dumped out to a very happy player.  One way is to set the safety timer unit timeout to a long time.  The safety timer is in the bottom/rear of the cabinet under the transformer and has the red "neon" light on the front.  You have to remove the thing to easily see how the timer works.

The plastic gear in my odds unit has a missing tooth, but it looks like it was part of the design, not a failure. Currently, I can click the odds unit 4 times before it spins and triggers the leaf switches the other direction.

that's right ... the unit is physically restricted to 4 step-ups from reset by the flat/missing teeth.  Unit reset = 1 coin played, then one step-up for each coin after that.

[Billiardsnit]

My top unit with lights is marked 822 - It has an odds unit, JP count unit, JP lock up relay, and 5x multiplier unit. The reels have 25 symbols each, and codes are as follows - Reel 1 584-27S - Reel 2 584-27S - Reel 3 584-28S. 12 MGM Film Tapes on Reel #1, 1 on Reel #2, 3 on reel #3. 1 MGM Lion on each Reel signifying a jackpot I'd assume. Rest of the symbols are Bells, Cherries, Oranges, and Plums with no blanks.

dunno what the 822 is supposed to mean.  Bally model 822 is a bingo pinball machine "Big Wheel".

the P-584-[27,27,28] index discs were used on 3-line and 5-line machines.  Unfortunately, I'm missing the page with the index disc definitions, but it's not a big deal.  My information also stops in the mid-1970's, so the discs may have been used again.

the 831-5Z was a 3-line-pay for the mgm casino in reno.  A reel 1 tape that went with it was M-225-181.

the 873-4ZR was mgm reno 5-line 1767 way machine with reel 1 tape M-225-225.

you could peek at the reel 1 part number by uncrimping and lifting out the top of the reel tape.  It's printed on the underlapped area of the end of the tape (see https://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=46429.0 for example).

got a picture of the wiring on the reel 3 wiper board and the edge of the reel 3 wipers showing which fingers are connected together?

unless the machine was produced after my docs end, the game was created from parts.  To see if it's a professional conversion for casino use, would need to look at the pay table and get the symbols on all three reels in order from top of tape down (or the tape part numbers so I can look up the tape definitions), then the payback percentage for the machine can be calculated.

There is a paper cap associated with the Delay solenoid in the hopper. I'd assume that has went dead but is it needed?

delay relay electrolytic cap is 30uF, 250V.   Don't put it in backwards :-)   There's also a resistor and diode in the circuit.  A 1N4004 or 1N4007 is fine.  The resistor is usually 47 ohm, 1W.

when the delay relay doesn't work, the  will shut down after a few coins are ejected on a payout.  If your delay relay is being used and isn't just a leftover from whatever hopper was used, there will be a cam stacked above the ratchet on the payout counter and a microswitch operated by notches in the cam.

it's possible to disable the delay relay stuff ... it's there to shut the machine down if the payout counter is not stepping during payout so the entire contents of the hopper aren't dumped out to a very happy player.  One way is to set the safety timer unit timeout to a long time.  The safety timer is in the bottom/rear of the cabinet under the transformer and has the red "neon" light on the front.  You have to remove the thing to easily see how the timer works.

The plastic gear in my odds unit has a missing tooth, but it looks like it was part of the design, not a failure. Currently, I can click the odds unit 4 times before it spins and triggers the leaf switches the other direction.

that's right ... the unit is physically restricted to 4 step-ups from reset by the flat/missing teeth.  Unit reset = 1 coin played, then one step-up for each coin after that.

Attached is pics of both the part number of the reel tape and wiper pictures. I did some google searching and managed to find one single example of a machine with the correct symbols on the pay table for an MGM Grand nickel slot, but its a slant top model of some kind, not the typical #800 Bally build that we are focusing on. I could recreate the artwork and have something printed to make a reproduction if I wanted to go that route, although I'm not keen on the idea as I've never found anywhere that produces prints as sharp and detailed as the original. An MGM themed machine would be a rare piece from what I can tell if I can get it back to that version.

I was doing some poking and prodding around and accidently discovered that if I short the bulb to chasis behind the "Max payout of $20" section of the reel glass, the hopper motor and coin kicker both activate and the hopper will pay out. Also, manually clicking the Odds unit to the 3rd position also makes the hopper pay out, but when coin in, the odds unit doesn't attempt to actuate, Something definitely isn't correct.

From the directory, Based on the Tape #, those are from an 873-4ZR. M225-225 tape uses slotted plates P584-27 and P584-28.

[wolftalk]

attached are the reel tape definitions for tapes m-225-[225-227]. 

having 25 stop reels is a bit inconvenient - there wasn't a 25 stop triple bar game made up until my docs end, so factory 25 stop triple bar tapes may not exist and therefore your top glass isn't really useful for the reels.

I guess you'd either need to make tapes or find glass and tapes/index discs that match.  The cheapest route is probably make tapes and rewire the reel wiper boards as needed to create the pays on the glass.  If you look at the 831-D documentation on https://bingo.cdyn.com/ the m-225-xxx file has the dimensions of the tape.  I'm pretty sure I have 22 stop tapes with 1/2/3 bar symbols I can scan and make available, so they'd be close in size to what is needed for a 25 stop game.

for a single payline game, your index discs and reel wiper wiring can almost certainly be made to work as long as there's 9 or less unique symbols on the tapes.  You'd probably wind up mapping multiple index disc slot depths to the same symbol based on the game percentage you'd want to get.  In other words, your index discs have 9 or 10 different slot depths needed to support a 3-line-pay game ... your top glass would need 7 depths.

you more-or-less have the pieces for an 809 with 25 stop reels, so might as well make it an 809.  If you don't have a bars match relay, something can be scrounged or your jackpot relay could be used and you could ignore/remove the jackpot stepper unit.  The bars match relay is usually mounted on the reel mech.

looks like you have a bit of a project machine.

 

[Billiardsnit]

attached are the reel tape definitions for tapes m-225-[225-227]. 

having 25 stop reels is a bit inconvenient - there wasn't a 25 stop triple bar game made up until my docs end, so factory 25 stop triple bar tapes may not exist and therefore your top glass isn't really useful for the reels.

I guess you'd either need to make tapes or find glass and tapes/index discs that match.  The cheapest route is probably make tapes and rewire the reel wiper boards as needed to create the pays on the glass.  If you look at the 831-D documentation on https://bingo.cdyn.com/ the m-225-xxx file has the dimensions of the tape.  I'm pretty sure I have 22 stop tapes with 1/2/3 bar symbols I can scan and make available, so they'd be close in size to what is needed for a 25 stop game.

for a single payline game, your index discs and reel wiper wiring can almost certainly be made to work as long as there's 9 or less unique symbols on the tapes.  You'd probably wind up mapping multiple index disc slot depths to the same symbol based on the game percentage you'd want to get.  In other words, your index discs have 9 or 10 different slot depths needed to support a 3-line-pay game ... your top glass would need 7 depths.

you more-or-less have the pieces for an 809 with 25 stop reels, so might as well make it an 809.  If you don't have a bars match relay, something can be scrounged or your jackpot relay could be used and you could ignore/remove the jackpot stepper unit.  The bars match relay is usually mounted on the reel mech.

looks like you have a bit of a project machine.

I like the Idea of the MGM machine, rewiring the wiper plates shouldn't be a huge hurdle to overcome with a solid understanding of how it works, and it looks like I'd only need 7 or 10 different payout variations (Since the plum, orange, and bell also pay with an MGM reel tape on the 3rd line). The other issue is my hopper has the M-645-118 payout disc, which does not have an 18 coin payout trace. I need a good print-out of the wiring schematic as it is easier for my brain to process and I can go to town with a highlighter.

I'm considering the possibly of scrapping the whole electromechanical bit and converting things to an arduino based setup. I'd need a solid state relay bank for the hopper motor, coin kicker, coin in stop, handle lock, hopper overflow diverter - and then reuse some switches for input for coin in, coin out count, wiper signal, etc. The meters don't need to be there anymore.

My Reel unit has a relay labeled "Bar Relay" above the cocking mechanism, is this the Match relay?

I took some time to recreate the artwork from a belly glass from an older MGM machine. I've found 3 examples of how it could have possibly looked, and I think I like this one the best.

[wolftalk]

if you're ok with reproducing glass, then ya can reproduce a top glass also and make the game whatever you want it to be.

personally, I'm not fond of multiplier or 5 line machines since dropping in a bunch of coins gets old pretty fast.  The bonus jackpot payout for 5 coin play doesn't really matter when you're paying yourself with your own money.

there's a few things that make the game a little more interesting imho:

- scatter pay (three visible mgm symbols win whether they are on, above or below the payline)
- mgm symbols are wild ... sounds like someone wired them to count as a bar on reel 3 already.  You probably would need some diodes and a bridge to run the payout circuit on dc to have wild mgm symbols on all reels.
- right to left pay

switching to solid state won't gain ya much as you'd still need the reel wipers ... and it may not be possible to know exactly which symbol position you are on ... just that you are on a particular symbol ... so scatter pay may not be possible.  On multiple line games, bally used different index slot depths when they needed to know what the symbol above/below the payline symbol was (in effect, the three visible symbols on a reel were assigned to a slot depth rather than just the payline, so something like CH-BAR-OR on reel 1 would be a different depth than OR-BAR-OR)

bar relay = bar match relay.  It powers when you have matching bars and switches on it change the trace powered on the payout disc.

the tapes don't have double/triple bar symbols, right?  The handwritten tape info is interesting ... 

[Billiardsnit]

if you're ok with reproducing glass, then ya can reproduce a top glass also and make the game whatever you want it to be.

personally, I'm not fond of multiplier or 5 line machines since dropping in a bunch of coins gets old pretty fast.  The bonus jackpot payout for 5 coin play doesn't really matter when you're paying yourself with your own money.

there's a few things that make the game a little more interesting imho:

- scatter pay (three visible mgm symbols win whether they are on, above or below the payline)
- mgm symbols are wild ... sounds like someone wired them to count as a bar on reel 3 already.  You probably would need some diodes and a bridge to run the payout circuit on dc to have wild mgm symbols on all reels.
- right to left pay

switching to solid state won't gain ya much as you'd still need the reel wipers ... and it may not be possible to know exactly which symbol position you are on ... just that you are on a particular symbol ... so scatter pay may not be possible.  On multiple line games, bally used different index slot depths when they needed to know what the symbol above/below the payline symbol was (in effect, the three visible symbols on a reel were assigned to a slot depth rather than just the payline, so something like CH-BAR-OR on reel 1 would be a different depth than OR-BAR-OR)

bar relay = bar match relay.  It powers when you have matching bars and switches on it change the trace powered on the payout disc.

the tapes don't have double/triple bar symbols, right?  The handwritten tape info is interesting ...

The tapes do not have any Bars at all, only a single MGM Film Tape strip and an MGM Lion. I guess you could treat the film tape symbol as a single bar. Cherry, Orange, Plum, Bell, Film, Lion -  I guess There would be 11 total payouts, because Cherry line 1, Cherry Line 1 and 2, 3 Cherry, 3 Oranges, 3 Plums, 3 Bells, 2 Oranges then MGM, 2 Plums then MGM, 2 Bells then MGM, 3 MGM, and 3 Lion jackpot. I prepared vector artwork for the symbols to make a file for the top glass. The MGM symbol isn't wild per say, it just also pays if it pops up on the 3rd line with 2 Oranges/Plums/Bells on the first two reels. Honestly, I wouldn't care if I changed that up and made them have to hit 3 of the same of anything to pay to reduce the complexity. This would lower the odds, but who really cares about that in an entertainment only machine?

I still haven't done a deep dive into a wiring diagram yet, I guess the Bar relay is activated by contacts on the reel wiper?

[wolftalk]

I was thinking the mgm film strip symbol = bar.  Bally just called it MGM on the tape definition doc, so I guess that was lazy and imprecise :-)

the index disc slot depths on a single pay line machine map to unique reel tape symbols, so your glass shows 7 symbols (no lion head).

the reel tapes have 6 symbols including the lion head

since the index discs were originally used on 3-line and 5-line machines, they have 10 slot depths. 

you look at the "division numbers" columns on the tape definition and you see the 1-25 symbols in the order they appear on the tape.  Then you look at the index disc definition file and the slot numbers 1-25 correspond to the tapes.  I put both docs in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/873-4ZR

plod thru the two things and you'll see that for example on reel 1 the symbols map to slot depths like this:

CH - 4
OR - 2
PL - 1
BE - 3
MGM - 5,6,7,8,9
LION - 10

so all you need to do is connect the reel wiper board rivets corresponding positions 5-9 all to the MGM symbol wire going to reel 2. 

having the lion head wild and/or the mgm symbol semi-wild on reel 3 is just reel wiper board wiring.  The 809-B schematic and reel wiper wiring docs are an example of how the reel 3 bar is semi-wild thing was done and is how a machine with your top glass would be wired.   Also shows how the bars match relay powers and modifies the payout.

adding the lion head to the reel 3 semi-wild rule is a simple extra rivet connection.  Making the lion's heads completely wild on all three reels is conceptually straightforward but you need to make sure it doesn't create unwanted circuit loops that would require DC and diodes to resolve.  Probably easiest to draw it and see.

the biggest player complaint I hear is a game is "no fun" because it doesn't pay often enough, so if you're going to design your own game, having a high hit frequency is probably what most people prefer.

if ya get stuck on the details, post what your paytable, reel tapes (if different from what you have) and desired rules are.  I'm not sure if you're planning on making tapes, glass, both or ...

[Billiardsnit]

I need to make sure I'm getting my facts straight with this wiring Diagram. One wire feeding the Reel wipers is 50v and another is 6v? Seems like they have a set path dedicated for 6v to the bell and another set that just turns on the Bar relay. My plan is the bell will only ring when 3 lions come up - A jackpot hit.

Played connect the dots earlier trying to work out my logic for this wiring. Any payout over 18 coins will require activation of that coil, with the need for 100 coins for 3 MGM, and 200 coins for 3 Lions. I haven't quite wrapped my head around how it counts to 100 and 200. This configuration of wiring does involve cutting one of the wiper bridges on the 3rd reel to allow for a seperate additional link.

I did play the game earlier for a few minutes just for an arm exercise and I hit a random combination of 3 symbols and it paid out 5 coins successfully so there is some combination that will complete the circuit.

[wolftalk]

you've got the right idea, but I think there's some wiring errors on the diagram.    For example, as drawn you've connected wire 90 directly to wire 13, so the game would always pay at least 2 coins on any spin.  You need the 2 pay trace connected to the top rivet which also goes to reel 2 like below.  Note that normally when you have a two cherry win, both the 2 trace and the 5 trace are connected to wire 90.  That's fine ... the pay still ends when the wipers step off the 5 trace.

although the 6V and 50V circuits both eventually tie back onto wire 30, they are kept separate.  If they didn't do that, whenever there was a losing spin that did not connect the path back to wire 30, you could have a current path from 6V "hot" to the 50V "hot" ... e.g. wire 20 -> bell coil -> a chunk of a common wire like 90 -> a reel wiper connection to the payout disc trace -> payout relay coil -> wire 70. 

bally typically had all the 50V stuff on reel wipers at the tops of the boards and the 6V stuff was lower down, sometimes with an arc or two of unused rivets separating them.  While your drawing separated the 6V ok, you are using some top wipers for 6V on reel 1 that are 50V at other index positions.  Works but it's not the convention.   You can cut the connections between the wiper fingers or jumper them as needed

what is your end design goal?  Are you wanting a machine that pays exactly what the glass shows?  Since your tapes have different symbols from the glass, you have to change something. 

are you making tapes with all the symbols the glass shows + a lions head jackpot?  If that's the plan, the wiring will be similar to an 809B with the 10 position on the reel board being the lions heads on all three reels and the only 6V connections are on position 10.  The only decision to make is mapping the other symbols on your tapes to the other slot depth on each reel ... how you do that is your choice and just effects pay frequency and payback percentage.  If you want a game that pays more often, you'd have more cherries or bars of various types so you get more frequent bar pays.

for example, the 584-27 index disc has 4 depth 1 slots and 3 depth 4 slots.  If you went the more "consistent" route and had cherries at depth 1 instead of depth 4, you'd be adding a cherry to reel 1.  Put cherries at both depth 1 and depth 4 and you get lots of cherry wins :-)

if you want the lions head to be wild on reel 3 or all of them, it gets a little more complicated but the result is also more interesting from a play perspective.

I can be more specific on wiring and diagrams if I know the paytable plan :-)

[Billiardsnit]

My plan was make custom top glass for the pay table, Custom MGM Belly Glass, and leave the reel tapes as is. If someone has the correct Tapes with plates for an 809-B Triple Bar, I'd just convert it back to the original game and call it a day. I just want a complete, 100% working machine. I figure after having the custom window decals made and cutting acrylic to drop in, I'd be in the whole reskin about $60 and that would be the cheapest route.

The sample machine I found pictured above has Cherries on line 3, while my tapes only have Cherries on lines 1 and 2, so there can not be a 3 line Cherry payout. Lion is jackpot, and there are only 1 on each reel, I do not want those wild. MGM on the 3rd reel are wild for Bells, Plums, and Oranges only. I went through the sheet and mapped all the slot depths to the symbols and they are in my wiring diagram, the colors show the slot depth mapping to each. Purple is Lion, Orange is Orange, Blue is Plum, Yellow is Bell, Black is MGM, Red is Cherry. I didn't realize the jackpot bell was a separate 6v line until I had already spent about 2 hours mapping things out, so I just came up with a quick and dirty path for it. I didn't put anything in for powering the Bar relay. The only time the bar relay gets powered with 1 coin in this game is when the MGM or Lion appear, and those would pay 100 and 200 coins.

[wolftalk]

since the tapes don't match the glass, you'd need to check the payout combinations on the reels and see if you get something reasonable.  The worst case is someone just shoved pieces into a cabinet that were never integrated together. 

in other words:

1] does the game accept up to 5 coins and light the columns on the top glass appropriately?
2] does the game correctly pay the CH, OR, PL and BE wins and things only disagree with the glass when you have MGM and LION wins?
3] does the MGM on reel 3 act like a single bar in the pay table for the BE and lower wins?

there's no way of knowing what the machine was when it left the factory.  That cabinet style was used on models 809, 831, 873 and a few others.
 
changing the machine from a 25 stop game to a 20 stop game has one other gotcha besides sourcing the index discs and tapes ... the reel kick levers are different.  David walz in https://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=46046.0 has been doing something similar and needed to source the 25 stop levers.

if the game is correctly wired for a sensible pay table and the issue is the top glass is wrong, the easiest - but probably not cheapest - thing is figure out what the top glass should say and make that glass.

I would guess the cheapest - but more work - thing in make new tapes that agree with your glass ... david had some tapes made so you can ask him how much it cost and if he's happy with the result.  He may have made glass or at least priced out some options.

your index discs have enough unique slot depths you can use them with your current glass and assign the extra depths to whatever symbols you wanted, so you'd be making custom tapes and you'd wire the reel wiper boards to match.  You'd lose the mgm and lion symbols tho.

the "bar relay" is only used when you have multiple bar symbols and an "any bar" payout like your glass shows.  Usually the bar relay was called the "bars match" relay and the reel wipers are wired to power it when you have three matching bar symbols.  If someone reused the bar relay for something else and didn't relabel it, ya can thump them if you ever meet them.




 

 

[Billiardsnit]

1] does the game accept up to 5 coins and light the columns on the top glass appropriately?

Currently, The game accepts as many coins as you want to put in it. I get no response from anything up top. The light arrangement is setup for the 5 line paytable lights. I can coin in, that unlocks the handle and allows a spin. The hopper randomly stirs the coins.

2] does the game correctly pay the CH, OR, PL and BE wins and things only disagree with the glass when you have MGM and LION wins?

The game doesn't pay out anything at all, ever, except when you hit one oddball combination that just so happens to align with the incorrect combination on the wipers. The current wiper combination looks very simple compared to what I would need, and doesn't appear to match the 809-B wiring either so I'm afraid converting it over to a Triple Bar might not be as simple as swapping tapes and plates.

3] does the MGM on reel 3 act like a single bar in the pay table for the BE and lower wins?

Yes, Consider the MGM a single bar. This machine would be like a tape with all the fruit plus a 7 and a Single bar.

[wolftalk]

since you have 9 or 10 slot depths on those index discs, you will need that many positions/columns wired on the reel wiper boards. 

can't tell for sure, but it looks like your reel 3 wiper board is wired for maybe three slot depths and either a bell circuit or a hopper mixer circuit.  If so, the reel mech came from a "jackpot only" style machine which just had 3 or 4 unique symbols and probably blanks, then someone plopped a shaft with reels/tapes/index discs into the thing and never rewired the index discs to make it work.

as you originally posted, you probably have the cabinet, hopper, top insert and reel mech from an 809-N with the wrong glass and reel shaft/tapes/index discs.  You'd want to contact david walz and get some measurements to see whether you have the kick levers for a 20 stop, 22 stop or 25 stop machine.  If you game kicks and spins the reels reliably, then it's a bit murkier since the 809-N was a 20 stop machine and you have 25 stop index discs.

unless you're putting it back to an 809-N, you're going to be rewiring the reel wiper boards.  That's the easy part compared to changing the tapes/index discs/glass.  You'll also want to look at the back of the reel mech to see how many plugs you have ... if it's the 809-N, you'll just have one 24 pin plug.   

your back to square 1 tho ... you need glass and tapes that work together.  Since your index discs have 9 or 10 depths, you can use them for just about anything that can be made with a single 24 pin plug to the reel mech.  If you want to make glass and create a different machine, that's fine but you'll still need to rewire the reel wiper boards.

you also have a top compartment which has some impact.  For example, I have 20 stop black "3-bar-any" tapes and index discs for a 742A-2 machine and maybe the reel glass you could have, but then you'd have a useless top compartment.

again, the easiest thing is probably make tapes that match the top glass.  You'll wind up with an 809-B with 25 stop reels ... which doesn't bother anything else in the machine.  All you need to do assign the extra slot depths to symbols you choose, wire the reels discs to match and make the tapes.   If the bulk of the game is still an 809-N, that's great as it'll be very close to an 809-B.

it's definitely a project and I guess ya need to decide if you want to put the effort into it or just sell the parts.  If you're curious how the games work, you'll thoroughly understand them if you decide to make a working machine.