Help with Bally 1168 Big Spender

[1168_bally]

Hi

1. Yes, payouts continue.

C-2 open, no payout, no handle release.

3. See images 1-2.

4. Not yet tested.

5. See image 3.

Something else I've noticed again:

The problem starts when I unplug and reinsert the hopper from the Jones plugs, even with the machine switched off.

As soon as I switch the machine back on.
After playing 5 to 10 times, the malfunction stops, and everything works normally. Even if I switch the machine off and on again, everything remains normal.
Only when I unplug and reinsert the hopper (as mentioned, with the power off) does the problem start again when I switch it back on.

As long as I don't plug or unplug the hopper, there are no problems.

[1168_bally]

Reel 1 and reel 2 were covered with paper, yet still paid out.

I've also noticed that the payout happens the exact moment after the reset.
You hear the click of the reset to zero, the win light goes out, and the payout begins.
Usually, it's 14 to 24 coins.
After 6 to 8 attempts, only 1 or 2 coins are paid out,
and then suddenly everything works normally again.

[wolftalk]

Even if I switch the machine off and on again, everything remains normal.
Only when I unplug and reinsert the hopper (as mentioned, with the power off) does the problem start again when I switch it back on.

As long as I don't plug or unplug the hopper, there are no problems.

what happens if you turn the machine off and wait a long time?

is there a relay on the hopper someplace with a capacitor on it?

the payout relay is on the back of the hopper.  There's supposed to be a 470 ohm 10watt resistor connected to the relay coil lugs (orange and grey/yellow wires).  Is that missing?  If it is, disconnect the 8200 ohm 1/2W resistor and see if the payout problem stops.  You want the resistors tho to minimize burning/pitting of the payout counter disc traces, so if you are missing the 470 ohm resistor, time to get one. 

a 10W resistor is typically a ceramic thing like the picture below.  They don't need to be that long anymore, but they are still usually ceramic. 

the 1114 the picture came from has a red/blue wire on the payout relay coil instead of orange because it has a hopper cutoff relay switch between that lug and orange wire 70, but almost all bally EM slots have that 10W resistor on the payout relay coil.

[1168_bally]

Waiting longer doesn't change anything, as far as I can see.

I can't find any capacitor either.

Do you mean this resistor (image resistor_2)?

I only see this resistor, no other resistors.

And can I replace it with this one?

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0FG24WZBM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A17GKGMDXTQ2B0&th=1

[wolftalk]

you can disconnect the 8200 ohm resistor circled in the previous post as a test to see if the payout problem goes away, but you need to reconnect it and ADD another resistor like in the below picture (except you have orange wires instead of the red/blue one on the coil lug).

the resistor in the amazon link is correct.

note the resistor will come with bare legs/leads.  You can "sleeve" them with heat shrink tube or just some insulation stripped off a piece of wire.  The sleeves don't need to be tight on the legs, just prevent the bare metal of the legs from touching anything if the resistor is moved around.

[1168_bally]

I disconnected the resistor for testing purposes.

When the machine is switched on, the payout starts immediately,
but without the resistor, the payout doesn't stop after 14 coins as it does with the resistor,
but only when I switch the machine off.

[wolftalk]

I disconnected the resistor for testing purposes.

When the machine is switched on, the payout starts immediately,

that's odd :-)

you want to know two things:

1] is the payout relay actually powering?

2] if it is, does it stop of you slide paper under all the wiper fingers on the payout disc, including the 4 outboard wiper fingers?

I assume when you turned the game on, there's no winner on the reels.

[1168_bally]

1] Yes, when I pull the lever and the unwanted payout starts, the relay engages. At the end of the payout, the relay disengages.

2] If I cover all the wiper fingers with paper and pull the lever, the relay doesn't engage. No reset, no payout

No winning combination on the reels.

[wolftalk]

1] Yes, when I pull the lever and the unwanted payout starts, the relay engages. At the end of the payout, the relay disengages.

2] If I cover all the wiper fingers with paper and pull the lever, the relay doesn't engage. No reset, no payout

No winning combination on the reels.

- check that putting a piece of paper only under the payout counter wiper finger on the 14 trace makes the problem stop.

- check the outboard wiper fingers on the +-shaped carriage in front of the spiral cam on the payout counter are centered on the traces (100/200 for the bottom fingers, F/50 for the top).  Loosen the switch stack screws and twist the stacks to align the fingers.

- verify the vertical switches at the bottom/left of the payout counter aren't touching or close to the metal carriage or the lower left peg/e-clip/washer holding on the carriage.  If there's no washer, make sure if you pull the carriage toward you until it hits the e-clip the carriage doesn't touch the switch blades.

loosen the stack screws and shift the blades to align them with each other, then twist entire stack to move it away from carriage ... but keep the switches on the plastic cover on the carriage peg.

[1168_bally]

I placed the wiper finger on the 14 line, then on the 10 line, and then covered both with paper. The payout remains the same. But only somtimes 14 sometimes 11 sometimes 24 coins.

The 50/F and 100/200 wiper fingers appear to be centered. (see photos)

Do you mean these vertical switches? (photo blades_1) They are not touching the carriage. I placed the wiper finger on the 14 line, then on the 10 line, and then covered both with paper. The payout remains the same.

The 50/F and 100/200 wiper fingers appear to be centered. (see photos)

Do you mean these vertical switches? (photo blades_1) They are not touching the carriage. I'm not sure how I need to align them.

[wolftalk]

I placed the wiper finger on the 14 line, then on the 10 line, and then covered both with paper. The payout remains the same. But only somtimes 14 sometimes 11 sometimes 24 coins.

does "covered" mean stuck paper in between the wiper finger(s) and the copper trace(s)?

if putting paper under all the fingers makes the pay stop, you want to know which ones make the wrong thing happen.  Basically, connect one finger at a time to the contact plate.

Do you mean these vertical switches? (photo blades_1) They are not touching the carriage. I'm not sure how I need to align them.

yup, those vertical blades can't touch the carriage or the peg/eclip holding the carriage on. 

the "fish paper" insulation strips that look like thick paper don't matter tho ... they aren't conductive and often distort a bit.

all the switch stacks can shift a surprising amount if you loosen the two screws and twist the entire stack in either direction because the screws are a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the tubes the blades and spacer wafers are mounted on.  If the metal blades can touch the carriage or peg, loosen the two screws and turn turn the stack so the tops of the blades move away from the carriage.


can't tell from the pics and it's unlikely someone mangled them, but the fat metal bars on top of the outboard wiper switch stacks shouldn't be touching anything.  They are just physical protection for the brass/copper fingers underneath them.

[1168_bally]

I'm numbering the fingers from 1 outermost finger (on line 2) to 7 innermost finger

Open 1 7
Covered 2 3 4 5 6
No error - Payouts up to 2 work

Open 1 2 7
Covered 3 4 5 6
No error Payout reset OK

****************************************
Open 1 2 3 7
Covered 4 5 6
Error
****************************************

Open 1 2 4 7
Covered 3 5 6
No error Payout reset OK

Open 1 2 4 5 7
Covered 3 6
No error Payout reset OK

Open 1 2 4 5 6 7
Covered 3
No error Payout reset OK

It now seems clear to me that something is wrong with the 14th payout lane. Or with the finger, or with the wiring.

[wolftalk]

the machine is similar in game play to an 892-4 ... docs for the 892-4 are in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/892-4/

from your pics, your 14 pay trace has the starndard green/red (41) wire on it.

next thing to do is figure out if the problem is on the hopper, the reels or at a plug connection.

1] the most common problem is the reel wipers are slighly misaligned and bridging rivets - maybe intermittently.   In that case putting paper under the wiper fingers on reel 1 and/or reel 4 boards - or all 4 reel boards - would make the problem go away.  Since that's a quick test, try that first.  Use a bit piece of paper to cover the entire wiper board if you want to spin the reels, or you can spin and while the machine is mispaying turn it off and put the paper in, then turn it on and see if pay continues (assuming it normally does until the wipers leave the 14 trace on the payout counter).

if paper under the reel wipers doesn't prevent the problem, there could still be an issue on the reels at the plug wiring.

2] pull out the hopper and use an ohmeter to measure the resistance between solid yellow wire 30 anywhere you see it on the hopper and the 14 trace.  It should be infinite when the payout counter is reset and when the wipers are stepped off the end of the 14 trace.  Ideally, put your meter probes on wires 30 and 41 on the hopper plug pins.  30 is usually the long round pin on the top and 41 is the 3rd pin down on the right, but peek at the wires on the back of the plug to confirm colors.

note the plug chart on the schematic is looking at the female/socket side of the connection.  When looking at the male/pins side, you have to mirror the drawing left-right.  i.e. pin 1 is the top right pin on the male plug when looking at the pin side. 

if you are looking at the wiring side of the male plug, then pin 1 is the top left pin.

on a hopper, pin 1 almost always has a red/yellow (13) wire on it.


3] since you seem to have a short, the not convenient but fastest way to narrow it down may be to unsolder wire 41 from the places it attaches:
- male plug on hopper
- female hopper socket
- female reel mech socket
- male reel mech socket
- reel 4 wiper board
- reel 1 wiper board

unsolder the wire one place at a time and see if/when the problem stops.  In some places there may be a double wire and you'd want to unsolder both from what the attach to but leave them connected together.

another possibility is solid yellow wire 30 is broken someplace.  Except for jumper wires that can be any color, any non-jumper yellow wire should have an almost zero ohm connection to any other non-jumper yellow wire.

in other words, every solid yellow non-jumper wire is wire 30, so they are all connected together.  If you have a piece of wire 30 that is not connected back to the transformer eventually, you can get all kinds of odd behavior as circuits get connected thru coils or lamps that should be connected. 

in this case tho, there doesn't appear to be a way for a wire 30 fault to affect the 14 trace if the game is the same as a 892-4.   Another short/fault would need to be present in addition to a disconnected section of wire 30.

[1168_bally]

First test:
Hopper on wires 30 and 41 on the hopper plug pins
After reset 6.7 ohm, after the 14 step OL

[1168_bally]

Second test:
All fingers covered by all 4 reels.

The bell rings immediately,and payout 10 coins.

[wolftalk]

First test:
Hopper on wires 30 and 41 on the hopper plug pins
After reset 6.7 ohm, after the 14 step OL

that sounds wrong.

have all the wiring changes on the hopper been fixed?

can you email pictures of the hopper in it's current state ... especially the payout counter disc/wiring, payout relay showing the wiring on the switches and any other relay on the hopper.

do this with the hopper out of the machine:

1] put paper under all the wipers on the payout counter
2] one meter probe on yellow wire 30 ... plug pin is fine
3] other meter probe poke the:
- wipers (the main span of wiper fingers are all connected together, so anywhere on the thing is fine)
- the F trace on the payout counter disc
- the 14 trace on the payout counter disc
- the C.O. trace on the payout counter disc
- if bored, all traces on the disc and the outboard wiper fingers

get a non-infinite ohm reading anywhere?

the resistor attached to the payout relay coil is supposed to be 8200 ohms and the color code on it is right, but is that what a meter measures?

there's a double yellow wire going to a switch blade on the payout relay.  What color wire is on the mating switch blade?   if orange/green wire 74-1, is the switch open when the payout relay is unpowered?

[1168_bally]

I'll take the photos and run the tests tonight.

In the meantime, I've noticed something else that seems to explain the short circuit.

When I measure the continuity between wire 41 and the hopper metal, it shows continuity. However, if I move the entire payout unit slightly away with my finger, everything seems normal. I suspect that wire 41 is touching the metal somewhere, but unfortunately, I can't see where.

If I lock the payout unit in place, the payout error doesn't occur, and everything else works correctly: reset, payouts.

When I release the payout unit, the error reappears.

See video:

https://youtube.com/shorts/CMDZS8HzTdA

[wolftalk]

ya can skip the last batch of testing and just look at why the post #36 behavior is happening.

on a 892, the 41 wire is going from the 14 trace to the plug, so suggest ya unmount the payout counter from the hopper frame and follow the wire looking for places where the insulation has been cut into and check that no wire stand has broken off the solder connections and is shorting to something.

since we don't have a schem, it's possible the 41 wire is going elsewhere on your game but you'll have to look.

[1168_bally]

Could the problem be with the Jones connector?

I can't find any damaged cables, but the situation changes when I wiggle the connector.
I also think line 10 is affected; the blue/brown (26) wire/pin is located directly above wire 41 and shows the same symptoms.

[wolftalk]

Could the problem be with the Jones connector?

I can't find any damaged cables, but the situation changes when I wiggle the connector.
I also think line 10 is affected; the blue/brown (26) wire/pin is located directly above wire 41 and shows the same symptoms.

yup, anyplace the wire goes.

unless the jones plug housing is broken, the pins themselves are pretty isolated from each other.  A solder drip or something fallen into the back/wire side easily short things tho.

so you put the probes on 30 and 41 on the plug, wiggled the plug (or ideally just the 41 pin) and you got intermittent shorting?  Since the wire harness is pretty short, you'd have to look to see how much of the wiring is moving.

don't kill yourself trying to see the wiring side ... easiest to just take out the 4 black screws and the plug/wiring can be pulled out.  It just floats behind the two brackets.