need information on a Bally 1115-25 machine 3 line fruit

[Jim]

Have a 3 line fruit machine machine. got everything working except the payouts, has two types of payout systems, one on the hopper and the other is the type used in a 1090.  the symbols are above the lines by a half inch?  very few payouts will pay, some single cherry on the second line will pay, some two cherries will pay, but I also get a payout when there are no symbols lined up that would be a payout?  how do you know where the strips should start on the reel?  since the three line doesn't use single symbols cutouts on the disc, how would you determine where and what disc cutout belongs to what patterns??

I can not get any payouts on one coin center line.

Jim 

[slcjeeper]

Jim, can you post a pic of both the machine and reel mech with the door open?

[DavidLee]

Jim,
I would try to determine the cherry payouts on reel 1. Since one cherry will pay on line 1, 2 or 3. This might be away to set the first reel.
And if the  reels have a mark stamped into them, you might try lining up the mark with reel one. Other option would be to work with the 7s, as there is only one per reel, but three lines they pay on. Think I would start on line one with three 7s, should be continuity across the wipers.
Then drop done to line 2 and then 3, each line should have continuity across the wipers. 
The other way would be to compare a like machine, maybe someone on the site with the same set up could help out.

[slcjeeper]

Out of curiosity,  by chance would it be an IGT conversion?

[Amechanic]

Jim. The deepest cuts on the payout cams are usually your 7’s. It sounds like you might need to check your payout wipers locations to the buttons on the wiper boards. I find that when I have a missing payouts. I clean the wiper boards with a  scotch bright pad and do the same to the wipers. Make sure the wipers fingers have good pressure to the wiper boards.

[wolftalk]

I have a schematic for the 1115,  don't know how applicable it is to the -25 version.


if you have P-484-xxx numbers stamped into the slotted index discs, that could help.  Also, see if your payout counter disc part number is M-645-378


the lowboy exploded parts manual was bally 5000.
 

[Jim]

Here are the pictures of the machine and the information on the Disc's and hopper counter board.

DISC stamp numbers are:  684T438, 439 and 440
Hopper counter board is  M645-488,  tag on the wiring harness is 1115-25   E537-H30

would like to get a copy of those schematics, I probably could make sense of them.

appears that cherries count from the hopper, the 20 count wins come from the other counter set up.
also from the picture you can see that it will pay right to left and visa versa,  diode boards located in the reel mech.

Thanks for the help, appreciate it.   Jim

[wolftalk]

ok, according to some docs I have, your index discs and payout counter were used on a 3-line-pay left-right machine for Park Place casino.  Below is a diagram for a payout counter using the m-645-488 payout counter. 


if you can verify that's how yours appears to be connected (wire colors on the various lugs), I'll add that to my list


I found a schem for the 1115-14 which is a park place dollar slot with the left-right pay (has the diodes).  I'll get the scan cleaned up and put on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots

I don't know what the differences are between an 1115-14 and 1115-25, but generally a dollar slot would have a higher payback percentage so the index discs, reel contact plates and reel strips could be different between the two models.   

[Jim]

That is correct,  when I was trying to verify that the strips were in the right order, I peeled back the strips and that information was on the strips,  Park Place Casino, L-R  strip #1 etc. along with the strip number.

how do you know that the strips were placed on the reels correctly in relation to the disc's??   is there a way to check this out?

I will check on the wiring this evening.

Jim

[wolftalk]

with the strip numbers I may have info that tells you exactly what you need to know...what symbols were at each position of the reel strip and the depth of the slots on the index discs for each position.  I'd guess there is a visual way to see how the reel tins were supposed to mount to the index discs, but I don't remember if there was only one way or 4 ways you could do that.


your strips are probably m-239-xxx.   What's your xxx values?  I'd guess 81-83, so it's probably not those :-)


typically the xxx was consecutive numbers in the obvious order, but variants of the machine could be anything.  For example, a variant of the base model 1115 had xxx=16, 17 and 16, so reel 1 and 3 used the same one.  The matching index discs were p-684-365, 357 and 365.

[DavidLee]

7s usually have the deepest cut. Place the the stop arms in the deepest cut on the center line.
Then align the reel tape 7s on the center line. Setup some minor pays to see what happens.

[Jim]

Well, I finally figured out what was going on, made all the necessary adjustments and the machine is working 100%,  every payout pays right to the quantity it should. Had a lot help from Wolftalf, Thank You for providing the pictures and diagrams. Had do do some old school methods to determine payouts etc. I'll post the pictures to show you what I did. Had to understand how Bally came up with the 10 patterns on each reel, I have a book that shows the patterns associated with a typical 3 line fruit machine, I applied that logic to the reels on this machine, with information provided from Wolftalf, (pictures of the 22 positions that will have a pattern assigned to it) I was able to confirm the patters and their repeated use on the reel. reel one had 5 patterns the same, 8  other patters that were used only twice, and one pattern that was only used once.

Because of the patterns, you could not use the deepest cut and think that it was a seven!, on reel one, the deepest cut corresponded to the three symbols (orange-plum-orange). Again, Thanks to Wolftalk, he had pictures of the disc and instructions on how to find the first slot (cut on the disc) and that the first symbol should start there on the reel itself.

once all that information was obtained( and understood)  I was able to move all the strips to their correct position on the reels.

The pictures show what I did to figure out what symbols should be where for the correct payout. I did this using one coin, and went through each position until I got a payout, marked accordingly and did that for the remainder of the positions, took about two hours to figure it all out, but all that told me was the machine would make the necessary payout for the correct symbols on each line, and to complicate matters, the machine payed right to left and left to right. with the information provided by Wolftalk, was able to figure out what had to be moved and by how positions.

hope this may help someone if they come across a payout problem on a 3 line fruit machine.

Thanks again to Wolftalk for his help and information.

Jim   

[wolftalk]

jim suffered a lot more of my babbling than he is letting on, but one thing that came out is an unverified way to knowing exactly how to position a reel strip.


so for anyone who wants to shoot a theory out of the water :

1] there is a reference hole drilled in the metal reel index disc, and to the right of the hole is one of the mounting screws.  The disc slot on the radius line thru that screw is slot 1.  See first pic below.  It doesn't matter how deep the slot is.

Based on bally engineering docs, pretty confident this is always true.

2] index the disc into slot 1.  See second pic

3] the top symbol on the tape is on the center payline.  Example see third pic. 

so the theory is if you do steps 1-2, then mount the tape on the reel so it's centered on the payline with the door closed, the strip is mounted correctly.


anyone got a machine that this doesn't work on?

[Amechanic]

Wolftalk this is some excellent information on how to set and to check your reels strips positions. Do you know if this same setup work on the later Bally E-Series machines? I always thought that there must be a simpler way you install reel strips. 

[wolftalk]

I don't recall seeing any documentation on the index discs for those machines, but I'll look in the boxes again.

If someone has a part number off an e-series index disc, that'd help.  The earlier machines where P-X84-Y, where the x was 4,5 or 6 for a 20, 22 or 25 stop reel and the Y was the id number for the disc.


maybe the easiest thing is people who have an e-series take a look and see if there's a similar reference hole. 


anyone got a picture of an e-series index disc?

[GOS]

the eseries disk have a line up hole indicating position one - there were 3 type of disks 20 22 and 25 -which was stamped on each - i forget the actual code - P22?  not sure. 
on the EM machines - the disc for multiline games - you need to look at the wiring for the 7 to locate the position on the wiper board and then then the disc - not the disk to the wiper board

[wolftalk]

the eseries disk have a line up hole indicating position one - there were 3 type of disks 20 22 and 25 -which was stamped on each - i forget the actual code - P22?  not sure. 
on the EM machines - the disc for multiline games - you need to look at the wiring for the 7 to locate the position on the wiper board and then then the disc - not the disk to the wiper board

the problem here was mounting the reel tapes relative to the index discs.  Wiper positioning on the rivets is a different issue.


on the E-series, if you index the disc in position 1, is the top symbol on the tape on the center payline?

[essmeier]

Wow.  Very useful information.  I always assumed that there must be some visual way of determining the position of the index discs.

After all, the workers at the factory had to know how to put them together.

Wolftalk's "theory" should be a sticky here, as this won't be the last time that someone has reel alignment problems.

[Amechanic]

The Sticky Notes already been taken care of. I asked one of the Moderators to do it.

[wolftalk]

GOS's point is a good one ... what about the wipers.  Assuming it's possible to to loosen the screws connecting the wipers to the index arm and position the wipers on multiple columns of rivets, here's a theory extension on knowing where they go without having any docs for the game or caring about the reel strip symbols.

you do need to know one thing - is your game a 20 stop or a 22/25 stop.  Look for numbers stamped on the index disc.  If they start with P484, it's a 20 stop.  P684/P584 are 22/25 stops.  If in doubt, count the number of symbols on the reel tape (including "blank" symbols if your game has those).

a 20 stop game has 9 possible slot depths (the length of the slot in the index disc).  A 22 or 25 stop game has 10 possible depths.  Sadly, the shortest slot on both is called depth 1, but they are different lengths and thus position the wipers on different rivets.

coincidentally on the 20 stop model 929, slot position 1 has a depth of 1.  That's not generally true, tho.  Don't mix up slot positions (where the slot is relative to the reference hole) and slot depths. 

the first pic below shows some slot depths on a 20 stop game.  On a 22/25 stop game, depth 1 is 0.14 inches shallower.  The purple depth numbers in the pic get +1 added to them to get the green numbering for 22/25 stop games.


unfortunately, my 929 is an oddball with two sets of wipers on each index arm, so I'm not going to use pictures from that.  Instead, below are two pictures from the bally engineering docs that I flipped around so you're looking at the rivet/wiper side ... that's why all the text is backwards. 


to position the wipers correctly, index the reel in a depth 1 slot.  Then:
- 20 stop game - position the wiper contacts on the 9th column of rivets from the right
or
- 22/25 stop game - position the contacts on the 10th column of rivets from the right


almost every reel has a depth 1 slot.  If you are unlucky and have a reel or game that doesn't have one, use the picture to guess the slot depth and look at the wiring side of the contact plate to see if it makes sense. 


the gotcha is there doesn't have to be wiring on the rivets where the wipers stop.   The 20 stop example below I chose to be annoying ... it's where the wipers go when a lemon is displayed, and a lemon is no pay on the game, so the rivets under the wipers don't connect to anything (there's no wire ids in the rivet circles).


if someone wants to rewrite all the above to make sense, go to it!