New in the hobby and small issues - Continental and Medalist

[DavidBelg]

Being in the arcade, pinball hobby for a long time... and lurking at different slot machines I finally pulled the trigger on buying my first slot machines.

I can fix (and understand) pinball machines and Ballly EM pinballs, so I thought, this will be easy!

Still this is quite another thing   You have to learn the principles of slot machine operation.

So I bought a Circus, beautiful game, but incorrect hopper
Then bought a second Circus (I thought two will make one good one) but wired completely different and badly hacked too.

Now I learned that even though the same title... there are a lot of variations inside one model.
So being too hard of a job to start with, I sold the circus machines again and went to look out for another working machine.

I ended up buying a really nice continental.  Machine is super clean and looks all original with direct payout.


A week later, I got lucky to be able to pick up a medalist.  And I think a rare find in Europe.   I'm super super excited being able to enter the hobby and immediately finding this title.

So now two machines that work 95%!  And really excited about them.

Things to fix:
continental reels should spin smoother/faster
continental hopper fails on payouts above 150... probably to much spring tension or ..  anything lower goes ok but it locks itself up around 150-175 coins
medalist diverter coin chute doesn't energize so all coins go to side instead of hopper, but it pays out correctly.  Coil get's power (56V between both lugs) but doesn't energize --> only thing is, there doesn't seem to be a hopper overflow indicator (or even a way to attach it on the hopper, switch etc), so how does the game now when to divide the coins to the right chute?
medalist reel 1 sometimes spins too long or too short (instead of the first in the order of five)... and last reel sometimes keeps on spinning when payout already begins --> i think this will be mechanic cleaning and oil


After all, ok fixes and if anybody has any direct tips... thank you cause I'm 'new' here..


Here is a photo of my two games.

David from Belgium

[DavidBelg]

Followup on the problems:


1) Continental reel on the right lubed (with liquid mineral oil for sewing machines/fine mechanics) and now spins a bit faster.  Did I do correct dropping a drop of oil into the whole in the grey star shaped piece within the reel?


2) Continental: high pay outs problem on the hopper will be looked af with someone I know

3) Medalist replacement coin diverter coil installed and works --> but stil activated always.  Is there a way overflow is detected on a medalist hopper because there is no overflow bracket with ball installed


4) after cleaning and lubing my reel mechanism wiper assies the first reel has gotten better but not always perfect. 
I did fix the last reel that would not kick in in time before the payout cycle was triggered, this is now fixed with cleaning and oiling and kicks in fast when it's triggered.


I'm learning here

[DavidBelg]

3) Found how it operates: if the weight of the bowl with the coins is increasing, the bowl can pivot a little and on heavy weights, ,it pivots further and finally pushes a switch.  When that switch is pressed by the bowl, the diverter deactivates and coins are diverted sideways


4) for my first reel that sometimes wasn't kicking, I discovered it had a different (looser) kind of spring in the reels assy (the most bottom spring that goes from the timer cam to the 1st reel wiper arm release). 
   Connecting the spring a little further it now kicks a lot better --> will replace with a correct spring.

[shortrackskater]

Good to hear you were able to figure this out and thanks for posting your results. Keep us informed! Normally you'd get a reply from the EM guys here but I think they're still eating turkey! 

 

[DavidBelg]

Last night I fixed my hopper problems on the continental myself. (item 2 on my list).


I had 2 problems:
- too much spring tension on the index wheel --> runaway hopper on high payouts
- a non correct operating zero switch of the index wheel  --> not always restulting in a correct reset or switch was sometimes intermittingly 'always closed'.


Anyway, the game can now pay up to 250 coins and low payouts seem now a lot better (if not fixed completely) even with multiplier.
I rarely have an issue where for example 6x 2 coins should be paid (one cherry) and I only get 10 instead of 12.  You here the machine cycle 6 times but one cycle doens't seem to pay out.  Maybe this still is the reset/zero switch acting up but the machine is a lot better now.  I've learned a lot reading here.








Last real problem is my reels spinning to slow on the continental.  I think I will take it all apart and clean/lubricate again.
Is it possible the 'kick' is not strong enough or is it mostly reel bearings?

[shortrackskater]

Good to hear the second update!
I have a hell of a time working on my EM's . For some reason, it just takes me a long time to get my brain accumulated to wiring/switches, etc - all that goes into an EM.
In a few cases, some problems resolve themselves once you start using the machine, since contacts will self-clean when used often.

[RiseLikeRa]

David:


Congratulations on your great finds.  As far as the slow spinning reels I would first do the most simple thing, lubricate.  I know that you have done it before but do it again and again.  Perhaps start with the first reel and see if it is helpful.  The old grease gets hard and forms a barrier at times.  I had a game that I had to lube and work, and lube and work and lube and work over and over again.  So my post wont sound like a porno movie I will stop there.  It seemed to me that at one point the blockage of old grease just broke free and I got proper function again. I had to be patient.


The other problem could be a spring issue OR an improper alignment in the reel mech linkage.  Perhaps  your reels are firing too late or too early.  I made a tool to test the reel bundle on a bench.  That saved my right hand a lot of grief and pain.  There is no substitute for watching ANY mechanism on an EM game work as it should unobstructed by being still in the cabinet.


My opinions are free and worth every penny
Ra 

[OldReno]

Fine work, impressive.
Doesn’t’t hurt to clean & oil the needle bearings. Note that near the oil hole on the hub is a screw to tighten or loosen the clutch to dampen the spin. Many reels have screw missing, but work fine. If too tight will slow the spin.

[shortrackskater]

...that I had to lube and work, and lube and work and lube and work over and over again. 

Terrance: Was it this line? 

[RiseLikeRa]

I can't fool you.   Wise man indeed.   I love NLG and I don't want to get banned. 

[DavidBelg]

RiselikeRa.. that was a good funny reply.  But I understand were you're going to.


And I will release the screws and oil trough there and see if the screw tension has influence to it.


This weekend I worked on the medalist hopper too. 
The reset coil fired as it should but the wheel didn't return to it's zero position (2 coin payout field).  Even though it had enough tension to return it.  It often stopped at 20 payout area.
After disassembling, adjusting I discovered that the wiper arms were really tight on the disc.  So I bend them a little back so they run smoother over the surface of the disc, and that seemed to work.

I had to take it out a second time again because the arms left the 2 coin field on the disc by a hair after 1 coin release, so underpaying.  I adjusted the disc by losing the 2 hex screws and rotating it a very very small amount before fastening again.  And that solved my adjustment issue.


My problems that are left

A) Faster spinning reels on continental
B) Condintental multiplier payout sometimes skipped on some multipliers (not always, it's in the video below at 2:00)
C) Medalist paying me 80 coins instead of 100 coins on 'bar bar bar' for some reason (i tested this in the first 3 reels: bronze,  and the second set of reels: silver, they both hit 80) --> do I have the double step problem here, or do I need to adjust my 100 wiper arm most probably.
D) find me some #63 lamps for the medalist coin tray, easy
E) Finetuning the medalist, it sometimes doesn't spin the first reel and it sometimes spins the second reel too long.


I was wondering, how did they adjust these hoppers back in the days, did they step up manually up to 100 coins and then adjusted the wiper?


Anyway here's a video of my machines in action, unfortunately no big jackpots hit

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn3SjrmsKXo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn3SjrmsKXo</a>

ps: if you spot any other problems, please tell me! 

[wolftalk]

C) Medalist paying me 80 coins instead of 100 coins on 'bar bar bar' for some reason (i tested this in the first 3 reels: bronze,  and the second set of reels: silver, they both hit 80) --> do I have the double step problem here, or do I need to adjust my 100 wiper arm most probably.

I was wondering, how did they adjust these hoppers back in the days, did they step up manually up to 100 coins and then adjusted the wiper?

the outboard wipers can't really be reliably adjusted to step off the end of the trace at exactly the right time. 


the problem is the outboard wipers don't move enough per unit step to guarantee the connection is broken.  The main wipers move more per step.


since they need reliability, the large payouts are initially active thru the outboard wipers but end when the main wipers step off the CO (carry over) trace.   


what's supposed to happen is the reels are powering both the 100 trace and the CO trace.  The outboard wipers step off the 100 trace early ... maybe  in 80-90 range for a 100 pay, but payout continues until the right amount via the CO trace.


in other words, the 100 trace gets the main wipers close to the pay amount and onto an active CO trace, then the CO trace gets it the rest of the way.


the bally service manuals describe the adjust process, but basically you step the unit 100 times and make sure the outboard wipers won't touch the 100 trace when shifting the carriage to it's extreme positions - i.e. wiggling the thing and accounting for the slop in the mechanism.


you can find the bally manuals on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/.  You'd want the 2400 or 2600 manual

[DavidBelg]

Wolftalk thank you!


My C) medalist only paying out 80 coins instead of 100 problem is now fixed. 
And I understand now what carry over means.  I didn't even knew of the existance before so adjusting the 100 - 200 payouts was to me like... what kind of unadjustable system is this??
Payouts are now correct, thank you.


Anybody any tips on where to look for this:
B) Contintental multiplier payout sometimes skipped on some multipliers (not always, it's in the video below at 2:00)

[wolftalk]

B) Contintental multiplier payout sometimes skipped on some multipliers (not always, it's in the video below at 2:00)

what is the model number on the plate under the handle ... 847-xxx or just 847?


in any case, what you probably need to know is how payout multiplication happens on a machine with a mechanically stepped payout counter (the payout counter is stepped by a coin ejecting out of the machine).


the short answer is the payout counter gets reset after each "base" payout ("base" = the pay for a single coin) and payout happens again until you've been paid N times (N = number of coins played).


there's a lot of convolution in the circuits with the odds motor and switches on the cams, but the essential thing is the odds follower unit.  If you want to skip all the theory, make sure the wiper<->rivet connections on the odds unit and odds follower unit are clean.


what I'd probably do after checking those two stepper units is test a cherry win for all the number of coins played and see which ones work.  Usually if the problem is a wiper/rivet issue it'll work consistently up to some number of coins X and only pay the X amount when more coins than X are played.   e.g. a single cherry will correctly pay 2/4 for 1/2 coins, but still pays 4 for 3+ coins because the circuit to power the odds follower relay isn't connecting.


if multiplied pays are inconsistent even at 2 coins, could be any switch that is between the odds follower unit and odds follower relay coil on the schem.


do you know how to stop the clock fan so you can position the reels where you want?   If not, I guess that previous sentence sorta describes it.  Yank the handle to kick off the reel spin and grab the spinning fan blade on the clock mechanism on the left side of the reels.  That will stop the process of latching the reels.  Line up the left reel with the symbol you want a little higher than the payline and let go of the fan until the reel latches.  Grab the fan again and repeat for the rest of the reels.


that's why the inside of the cabinet is lined with metal plates.  Without the metal, all you need to do is drill a small hole in the cabinet so you can insert a wire rod to stop the fan, then control the fan as the reel slows down to latch in the symbols you want.

[DavidBelg]

Wolftalk thank you again!


It is indeed a cycle of N times the payout (in between the hopper resets).


I already know the trick of setting the winning combinations, and today my machine behaved perfectly normal.

I even made a video of it demonstrating it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJBxw2LJf8


I think I will leave it this way because it works and just play it a lot, if the problem would reoccur, i'll check both units (odds and odds follower).
Thank you for the pointers!



I also needed to make this adjustment on my medalist since my last adjustment:
"The torsion spring being wound too loose on the back 100 tooth nylon gear will give double steps and needs another ¼ turn or so to stop those short pays"

And exactly: 1/4th extra turn and the double steps are gone and payout is perfect now.


I'm getting quite addicted to this hobby, fixing, finetuning them and already lurking for a 3rd machine

[wolftalk]

the ratchet torsion spring was originally installed with 2 turns of tension. 


when the contact plate got cruddy or someone sprayed wd-40 on the ratchet shaft, people sometimes increased the tension to overcome the drag instead of cleaning the thing.   Since the unit has to step a lot, starting with too much tension risks a large pay winding the spring so tight the unit can't physically step any more.


one of the less obvious problems is the torsion spring itself is gummy.  If someone lubed it in the past, it's worth dropping in a solvent bath.  it should be clean and dry so the coils don't stick together.


not enough tension is odder.  Usually that results in the payout counter not resetting from the smallest payout - 2 in your case.   Sounds like your ratchet was getting pulled around too far from momentum and maybe coupled with a slightly off step-up arm travel adjust you were grabbing two teeth instead of one during on some steps.


if it's working, leave it :-)

[DavidBelg]

Actually, I worked on it because it did not reset all the time (sometimes it tried to reset but got stuck halfway).
So I took the unit apart, and ended up bending the wipers a little up because they were pressing too hard against the plate.

Eventually when reassembling I worked with the lowest tension needed to reset my wipers to the base position (2 field).
Apparently I installed it with a little too weak tension because I had double steps.
+ 1/4 winding on the spring and it now works as it should, of course resets are even better now and I can still step up till 200 without the unit having difficulties


How does the reel speed look in my continental video?  Acceptable or not quite there yet?

[OldReno]

Fascinating discussion. Contys are notorious for too tight payboard resets. Also you have to deal with max pays. Spiral spring too tight means  runaways on high pays. Too loose means short pays on low pays.
Wolf talk has  obviously worked in the industry, and has much great knowledge.
 I need to re-read this thread a couple of times

[DavidBelg]

And yes... no 3 landed yesterday in my gameroom...

A for the us guys more rare machine... bally Twenty One (1976 full EM)

Lot's of bonus game in it, 3 slot with hold, but will post that in a seperate topic

[wolftalk]

How does the reel speed look in my continental video?  Acceptable or not quite there yet?

Looks ok to me, but the other guys have seen a lot more machines than I have.   My 929 is a 5-reel game, so maybe I'm used to slower reel spin.


Is your Twenty One model 1103 made for the holland market?  Did it come with paperwork?