Bally 809, Five Coin Multiplier. Triple Bar

[Stilen0621]

Hello. Newbie here. I recently acquired a Bally 809 Five Coin Multiplier, Triple Bar machine. I have been messing with early Williams and Bally Solid State pinball machines for a few years. I have never gotten involve with any EM stuff so its out of my wheelhouse a little bit but I think I have a fairly decient grasp of general operation, schematics and so forth. I am trying to learn the proper names of things and their locations on the machine.

The machine when I got it had several issues and I've managed to work through them except for one thing. The issue I cant solve yet it that after a payout of "Any Bar" or higher the bell/buzzer wont shut off untill I insert another coin and pull the handle. I dont know if this is the way it is or not but I cant believe this is proper operation. All of the payouts are of the correct coin amounts. I purchased the book "Owners Pictorial Guide" which has helped but this last thing on the list has me stumped. I have looked at the switches /replays on the hopper assembly and all seem to function correctly. Its just whether they function in the proper order. If someone could point me in the right direction as to where I should focus my attention I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

I tried to upload a picture of the machine but apparently my file is too big.

[Stilen0621]

I just read this from another thread. My machine is a 809-7ZC. Date of MFG 3-30-76. I cant find a schematic for this specific model. Does anyone think the constant bell after a "Any- Bar" or higher payout could be normal behavior for this machine ?

an 809-N rang the bell on a 777 or whenever the bar jackpot relay powers.  The bar jackpot relay powers when you have three matching bar symbols.

the bell actually would stay ringing as long as the reels stayed on matching symbols, so if the player walked away, eventually I assume someone had to come by and shoot the machine to shut it up ... or at least drop in a coin to disconnect the pay circuit.   

most machines would only ring the bell for the duration of the payout for non-jackpot wins - it would be easy to change the behavior of the 809-N to that mode by changing a wire on a bar jackpot relay switch.

[wolftalk]

809-7ZC = triple bar made for the 4 queens casino.  Unlikely you'll find the specific schematic for the machine.

as ya found on the 809-N, customers did request this behavior so the goal is to come up with some explanation why.  Here's a couple:

1] they didn't want the game sitting there with the bar jackpot relay powered because they are concerned about energy consumption (ha-ha)

2] they didn't want a game left with a higher pay on the reels because their customer base believed the machines ran in cycles, so they wouldn't play a machine that had just paid a larger win.

so yup, someone had to wander by and do something to shut up the bell ... probably drop in a coin and spin the reels to get the winner removed.  Seems a bit odd from an accounting point of view ... especially if the machine paid again.

your fix is also reasonable - move the bar relay switch connection from wire 30 to wire 45 (or 20-1) ... or disconnect it and the bell only rings when the reel wipers connect it.  e.g. for a 777 on the 809-N

it's also possible but not likely you have an issue with wiper contacts bridging rivets on a reel wiper board ... I guess one quick check is see if your bars match relay has a switch connecting wire 30 to wire 10-2 like the N has.

[Stilen0621]

Thank you for the clarification Wolftalk. I'm glad I saw that post of yours from another thread. The buzzer needing a coin and handle pull to reset it didn't really bother me that much. What bothered me was being unable to figure it out.

I looked at the machine this evening and perhaps you could clarify what you mentioned as the solution.

 """Your fix is also reasonable - move the bar relay switch connection from wire 30 to wire 45 (or 20-1)"""  I only have a 30 wire on the Bar Relay Switch. No 45 or 20.

"""Or disconnect it and the bell only rings when the reel wipers connect it.  e.g. for a 777 on the 809-N"""   Do you mean just disconnect the bell completely ?

"""It's also possible but not likely you have an issue with wiper contacts bridging rivets on a reel wiper board ... I guess one quick check is see if your bars match relay has a switch connecting wire 30 to wire 10-2 like the N has."""  I do have a 30 and 10 set of wires (see picture).

My happy ending would be a bell that played when "Any-Bar" or higher payout was hit and shut off after the payout. My second would be to leave it as is. Third would be to just disconnect the bell.

[DavidLee]

Some machines have a jackpot relay mounted on the odds unit in the upper compartment.
It’s possible the relay needs a minor adjustment.
Also, the bell circuit in most machines is associated with a red wire.

If the index wipers are suspect.
They can be manipulated with a dowel rod and the aid of a bright light.
Just pushing one back should open the bell circuit if it is associated with the wiper boards.
Causing the bell to stop.
These are just general suggestions and may not apply to your particular machine.

[wolftalk]

 """Your fix is also reasonable - move the bar relay switch connection from wire 30 to wire 45 (or 20-1)"""  I only have a 30 wire on the Bar Relay Switch. No 45 or 20.

"""Or disconnect it and the bell only rings when the reel wipers connect it.  e.g. for a 777 on the 809-N"""   Do you mean just disconnect the bell completely ?

nice picture ... shows the wire 30 to wire 10-2 switch on the bar relay that is causing the annoyance.

a detail I left out is wire 45 or 20-1 isn't on a switch on the bar relay, but both are on the reel mech.  Wire 45 is typically the one bally would use.  Suggest:

1] disconnect yellow wire(s) 30 from the bar relay switch (leave the two wire segments soldered together tho or you break the daisy chain.  Tape them to insulate)

2] run a wire from green/white wire 45 on the reel mech A switch to the switch where the 30 wires were attached.

reel mech A switches are the vertical stack on the left side of the reel mech above the coin relay.  It's the stack closest to the back, and if your game is like an 809-N, 45 is on the middle switch (A-2).

since wire 45 is connected to 30 only while the payout relay is powered, the bell will stop when the payout ends.

btw, it wouldn't be unheard of to find wire 45 unused in the harness near the bar relay switches.  Bally sometimes used a common wire harness and didn't connect wire ends they didn't need.  Wire 45 should be at least connecting a plug pin to reel mech A-2 switch ... if either of those spots has a double wire, then suspect there's a wire end in the harness by the bar relay.  Another possibility is wire 45 was routed in the harness going past the bar relay and a loop long enough to reach the bar relay switch is taped up in there.  Odds aren't great for either of those.

tmi
----
using the 809-N schematic as an example below ...

if you disconnect the 30 or 10-2 from the bar relay switch (or easier, misadjust the switch so it never closes), the bell won't ring due to the bar relay powering ... but it will still ring on a 777 win because that circuit completes thru the reel wipers (red highlight below). 

You could also modify the reel wiper board wiring, but that's more work.  e.g. If you wanted the bell to ring for 7's and only matching bars, you'd get rid of the bar jackpot relay switch and wire the reel wipers as shown in green highlight. 

making the bell ring only for 7's and matching BA/5s is a lot easier - just have to wire an adjacent rivet on reel 1 board.  Bally already wired the rest of the 6V circuit to light the 100 lite.  Since the single bars don't light anything, so you'd need to wire the whole path thru the three reel wiper boards to make matching single bars ring the bell.

[Stilen0621]

Thank you for the info Wolftalk. I rewired as instructed yet the bell remained on after a "Any Bar" payout. I bought the "Pictorial Guide" as previously mentioned. While the 809 schematic in it is helpfull to some extent I think its definitely a more generic drawing and the online 809-N schematic is more accurate for my slot other than the wiper section. I'm enclosing some pictures that my better show what my machine has.

I should also add that when I got the slot it was nonfunctional. I've worked through those issues. When I got it there was a 45 wire that went to the payout coil that wasnt hooked up. Being a rookie I hooked it up to the relay switch. I thought it helped with the hopper activation and it didnt dawn on me until this morning that it might have something to with the circuit Wolftalk was referring to so I disconnected it. It obviously has someting to do with the bell circuit because it kept the bell from ringing. In hindsight. What I would like to see (if possible) is the bell ring when the "Any Bar" or above is hit the bell works then shuts off after the payout is made. The bell while it can be somewhat annoying I feel is part of the ombience of the game and casino feel.

One thing I should add for Wolftalk was that when I added the 45 wire from the payout relay (at the old 30 spot) to the 45 on Reel Mech A switch I did not disconnect the existing 45 wire that was at the "A" switch. Should that have been removed or left alone ? I left it alone.

I'm also going to guess the green switch in the first picture is called the "Payout Counter Zero Switch" ? if so, just for clarity there are two seperate switches on it. The lower have 78 & 85 wires going to it. The upper has 45 & 30 wires. I can find the 78 & 85 wires in the schematic but nothing about the 45 & 30. My guess is that this is the same circuit Wolftalk had me modifying earlier ? I'm going to go stare at this a little bit and see if I can get the lightbulb in my head to lite up.

[wolftalk]

One thing I should add for Wolftalk was that when I added the 45 wire from the payout relay (at the old 30 spot) to the 45 on Reel Mech A switch I did not disconnect the existing 45 wire that was at the "A" switch. Should that have been removed or left alone ? I left it alone.

leave 45 on the A switch.

below is a schem of what you want to accomplish .... probably shoulda just done that instead of the wordy description :-)

I'm also going to guess the green switch in the first picture is called the "Payout Counter Zero Switch" ? if so, just for clarity there are two seperate switches on it. The lower have 78 & 85 wires going to it. The upper has 45 & 30 wires. I can find the 78 & 85 wires in the schematic but nothing about the 45 & 30. My guess is that this is the same circuit Wolftalk had me modifying earlier ? I'm going to go stare at this a little bit and see if I can get the lightbulb in my head to lite up.

well, that's no good ... here ya go to all this trouble to make sure the bell ciruits are all tied to wire 45 since it is only connected to 30 when the payout relay is powered, and someone added a switch to connect those two wires whenever the payout counter is not reset.

you'd want to disable the 45/30 zero switch - disconnect 45, or 30, or both.  I'd remove the switch so the game matched the schematic better.    'course, leave the two segments of 30 connected together so you don't break the daisy chain.   

are both 30 and 45 in the wire harness and look like a factory setup?  I don't recall seeing a config where 45 is connected to 30 whenever the payout counter is stepped up ... I'll look at some schems and see.  The effect of doing that is any winner that is tied to the bell will leave the bell ringing until the payout counter is reset, which happens on the next handle pull ... that'd be weird unless something goofy like you get a free spin after every bell-ringing winner was implemented.

[Stilen0621]

are both 30 and 45 in the wire harness and look like a factory setup?  I don't recall seeing a config where 45 is connected to 30 whenever the payout counter is stepped up ... I'll look at some schems and see.  The effect of doing that is any winner that is tied to the bell will leave the bell ringing until the payout counter is reset, which happens on the next handle pull ... that'd be weird unless something goofy like you get a free spin after every bell-ringing winner was implemented.

I'll go look at it tomorrow and see about the rewire you speak of. Everything in the machine looks to be factory original. Backing up a couple posts ago to the reason why they did this....... I have no idea. Whatever their reasoning was it doesn't make sense. Just my opinion.

[wolftalk]

you can verify that disconnecting the 30->45 connection on the payout counter zero switch will solve the issue by sticking a piece of paper between the contacts and trying it before unsoldering a wire or doing something more significant.

definitely curious if the top zero switch is factory ... I haven't found a game yet with two switches.   The zero switch is normally used to disconnect the payout counter reset coil so the coil doesn't fire if the payout counter is already reset.  If they wanted another/more switch(es) to detect when the payout counter was not reset (e.g. turn on a winner paid light), "pawl" switches added to the top of the unit frame that changed state when the step-up/reset pawls flopped down onto the ratchet/gear teeth on the first step of the unit.