Bally bingo 929-1 counting/payout problem

[Peter321]

Some time ago I was able to restore a bally 929-1 with great help from Wolftalk.
I have now a counting/ payout problem. On the supercard all 3-in- line combinations are not paying while all numbers are lit; all seperate numbers are working when part of all the other combinations.A small hissing sound somewhere below the hopper and nothing happens.
The cornernumbers of the supercard are working ok and also all other combinations are working ok.
During pay-out the safety relayin closing regularlike it should.
This occurs in credit as well as in pay-out mode and playing 1 to 6 coins.

Other issue is that when higher amounts are coumted, larger than 900, also a hssing sound and machine is switched off totally, red light safety timer.

Wolftalk, maybe you will help me again and shine some light on this,
Thanks in advance
Peter

[wolftalk]

unlike a bingo pinball, the superline and supercard is always enabled, so they are just more pay combinations to wire up in the reel wiper boards.

I'd guess the problem is a 20 pay is not working.  Did you try another win that pays 20 for 1 coin play?  If those don't work either, it should be either a plug connection issue for wire 23 to the hopper, the 20 pay trace on the payout disc or the wiper contact to it needs cleaning or the diode in the wire 23 to 20 trace has failed.

machine shutdown only happens if the safety motor isn't being reset often enough by the microswitch on the payout counter cam.  What win did you have when the problem happened, how many coins played and was it coin or credit payout?   

[Peter321]

I have tested other 20 pays and they paid,which is strange as all go by the 23 wirei. Tested all 20 pays again and nowthey failed. Learning from your commentsI have checked the plug connection by moving the hopper a bit round. Now they started again paying, so it must be a bad plug connection.

The machine shutdowns hapens when counting towards 1200 credits win;1000 win is ok, I have checked and the relay connected to the microswitch frequently opens shortly and closes again longer so this part seems to work fine.
I am not sure now if the safety motor is not shutting down too early and is at his “end” , I need to check this.
Wolftalk, thanks for sharing, your logic thinking and experience is very valuable.

[wolftalk]

the safety timer motor is supposed to reset when power to it is interrupted by the cam microswitch opening every few steps of the payout counter.

for that to work tho, the delay relay must be powered.  If your delay relay is not working, then the safety motor will run continuously and eventually shut down the machine.  Normally this happens pretty quickly ... within a few coins.  If someone cheated and set the safety motor timeout to a long time, then any payout that completes before the shutdown will be fine.

another possibility is the 30uF capacitor on the delay relay is bad so the delay relay unpowers when the cam microswitch opens and the safety motor doesn't reset or resets partially.

could also be a gunky safety motor that's not resetting fast enough.  If you can see the delay relay, watch to see if it stays powered the entire time the game is paying.

[Peter321]

I have started a payout of 250, 4 corners supercard 1st coin, and relay is working irregular. bell starts ringing but after approx. 80 counts stops ringing. does not seem correct.
I have sent short video to slotpics to view.
Should the coil be activated non- stop during payout or is it following the pattern of the microswitch?
Hopefully the video shows if working is correct

[wolftalk]

the delay relay should stay powered during the payout.  From your video, it looks like it's unpowering when the microswitch opens, which means either the diode is shorted or the capacitor needs to be replaced (or both).

the diode is a 1N4004 or 1N4007.  The capacitor is 30uF 250V.  If you can't find 30uF, go for something close but higher.  The voltage needs to be 250V or higher.

the diode allows the capacitor to charge, and the cap keeps the relay powered when the microswitch is pulsing open.

[Peter321]

Great, I wiil go for repacement of the diode and capacitor.May take some time to get thembut will let you know the result
Thanks

[Peter321]

Sorry for late reply, but I spend some time in hospital. I have changed the diode, capacitor and resistor and looking to the movement of the coil it is similar as in my video, it will not open totally.
Looks like the safetymotor has maybe a problem and also the beauplug connection has some issues, when moving the hopper left/right sometimes counting stops.

[wolftalk]

if the plug connection is unreliable fix that first.  Jiggling the hopper shouldn't do anything.

it's easy to clean the hopper plug male pins, not so easy to clean in the female sockets.  Usually cleaning the male pins and verifying none of the female ones are pushed back in the housing abnormally is good enough.  If you have visible corrosion in the female pins you'll probably need to use chemicals or get something to mechanically scrub them (a small round wire brush).

some versions of the beau plugs have the female pins for the two large round male pins recessed in the housing, so if those looked pushed back they may be okay.

the pieces you have in the game are:

1] safety motor/timer

see pic below from the geddes book.

when the safety motor is powered, it's is winding up a spring-loaded timer.  If it winds up far enough, a switch opens and shuts off the main power to the machine.  When that happens, the "pilot neon" light is the only thing on.   The safety timer and neon light are in the bottom/rear/left side of the cabinet.

when power to the safety motor is removed, the spring should reset the unit.   

2] delay relay

when the payout relay powers, the delay relay should power.  If it doesn't, the safety motor will run constantly and should shut down the machine within a few seconds.

if the delay relay correctly powers, the safety motor will also turn on.  However, a "ratchet cam" microswitch on a cam on the payout counter will pulse open every 5 steps of the counter (a few seconds) and when it's open power to the safety motor is interrupted so the safety timer resets.

during that power interruption, the capacitor is supposed to keep the delay relay powered.  If it doesn't, the delay relay switches flip and the safety motor keeps running ... or at least the interruption time is short enough that the timer doesn't fully reset.

the delay relay should power and stay powered for the duration of the payout.  No hiccups when the ratchet cam switch pulses open.  If the 30uF capacitor discharges enough while the ratchet cam switch is open, I guess the delay relay could briefly unpower, but when the switches on it change state it would immediately repower and the relay armature plate would chatter up/down until the ratchet cam switch closed again.  That would be ok as long as the safety timer reset, so there's a bit of a race going on.

after cleaning the plugs, check the safety timer is not gunked up.  Since it's in the 120V circuit you have to be more careful if you are jumpering power to it to test it outside the machine.  I think you can just grab the pointer on the timer and turn it and let go, but I need to check that.

if the machine had an issue in the circuits, it's possible someone set the timer to a long timeout and you'd only notice a problem in very large pays.  That's how the safety motor worked before the delay relay/ratchet cam switch were added - the timeout was longer than it took for a maximum payout with sufficient coins in the hopper.  With the delay relay, the timeout was a few seconds.

[Peter321]

Thanks for your extensive answer, I know what to do now.
In the last alinea you mentioned safety timer could also become active when there might be an issue in the circuits.
I noticed that in credit mode the bell is ringing not equel with the credit counting, f.i. Credit counting 1000 and bell would ring only during counting of 450, and sometimes with other high counting only 380 or 500 times, always much shorter than actual wnning. Is there a mechanism which is steering the ringing? or should the ringing always be max 400 as in payoutmode?

[wolftalk]

the schematic says the bell rings when the payout relay (insert) is powered and either the jackpot relay or jackpot lockup relay is powered.

the payout relay (insert) is the one on the lamp panel in the top compartment.

the payout relay (insert) is powered when the payout relay on the hopper is powered, so it should be powered constantly for the duration of the payout.  If the payout is happening without hiccups, the payout relay should be ok so you can watch the (insert) one and see if it's staying powered.

the jackpot bell relay is powered via wire 23 from the reels.  Fortunately, the jackpot bell relay is also on the top insert panel, so you can watch what it's doing during a payout to see if it's unpowering. 

the amount of payout shouldn't matter to the bell ... if the reel wipers complete the circuit and the payout relays are staying powered, the bell should stay ringing.  With a bit of luck, you'll see a relay unpowering/repowering.  If not, check the switches in the jackpot bell coil circuit on the payout relay (insert), jackpot relay and reel mech A-2.

a quick test is manually close both the payout relay (insert) and the jackpot bell relay.  If the bell rings for as long as you hold those closed, the switches are all ok.

I don't recall a bell that has a limit for how long it can ring, but I guess it's possible.