UNUSUAL Bally’s/Lion Golden Gate 742A - Rare? Valuable?

[LTSmash]

Hello,

I just bought this slot machine at an auction, but I can’t find anything about this exact machine. I gathered from the model number that is from 1963-1964, but that’s all I really know. Oh, and I figure it came from the Golden Gate Casino (for obvious reasons).

Does anyone know anything else about this specific machine? Is it rare? Valuable? I intend to sell it so any information would be appreciated!

Thank you

[shortrackskater]

Topic moved to Bally Electro Mechanical.

Please post a better photo of the machine rather than a "downward" shot.
Also, please open the door and give us a shot of the inside. That's a VERY interesting machine. 

[LTSmash]

Yes, of course. Here are some internals and a straight shot.

[LTSmash]

Sorry, I don’t know why the images uploaded sideways. They were fine on my screen when I uploaded them.

I fixed the photos. They are retaining the orientation meta-data. Usually most photo programs have an option to remove it. Or you can edit and move the photo sideways, then back up. That has worked for many people.

[LTSmash]

Thank you for fixing the images.

Does anyone have thoughts on this? I dug into the history of Bally’s and Lions a bit and the timing for this to still have a Lions label that notes Ballys as a subsidiary seems odd. Makes me think this was very early in the electromechanical era as Ballys became independent in 1964, I believe.

So this must be early 1964 or late 1963, right? But weren’t the first 742A machines in 1964?And weren’t they primarily in the UK to start and didn’t gain in popularity here in the US until the late 60s?

And I haven’t seen any examples of machines like this from that era. The double aspect is also interesting.

I sort of wonder if this was one of the very first electromechanical machine in the US or if it was even possibly a prototype or sample given/sold to Golden Gate. Is that a possibility?

I just find the whole machine unusual and I’m hopeful some people who know the history better than me can weigh in on what they think.

[DavidLee]

Golden Gate must of had at least two double machines.
Don’t remember seeing the nickel version, but definitely played the double dime machine.
Usually they were installed on the end of back to back rows of machines.
The Gate was the only casino that I knew of that had double machines.

[LTSmash]

Golden Gate must of had at least two double machines.
Don’t remember seeing the nickel version, but definitely played the double dime machine.
Usually they were installed on the end of back to back rows of machines.
The Gate was the only casino that I knew of that had double machines.

Oh wow, you actually remember playing one like this? That’s awesome! Shame you don’t remember this nickel machine, that would have been really neat to interact with someone here who actually played this exact machine.

[wolftalk]

your hopper says 791 on it, but the way the two machines are mashed together in a 791 (per manual and advertising flyer) is different from what you have.

the 791 was more-or-less two 742A machines cobbled together with some stuff like door assemblies also bolted together to make one big door.   In effect, it was two machines that shared a pull handle, and you had to coin both machines to unlock the handle.  The top payout sign did allow for 6 reel pay combinations for jackpot sizes not possible otherwise.

details are in the bally 400 supplement manual found on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/.

bally made over 50 different model 791 machines for at least 15 different customers.  How many survived who knows ... I expect not a lot of demand for them once the casinos sold them off due to size/weight of the game.  The 791A was the first one.

for 791's, my info goes up to the 791-ZZP.  I have a schematic for a 791-ZV, and that game had two hoppers.  Since you only have one hopper and coin mech, I'd guess your machine was made in the aftermarket using parts from older machines. 

A hint for aftermarket is "Bally" doesn't appear in the artwork, and the back of the glass won't have bally style part numbers (stuff like G-350-xxx or G-349-xxx).  It'd be pretty ambitious for the aftermarket to made door castings, cabinets and parts needed to siamese the reel mechs together tho, but if ya look at some details like the wiring and how the payout counter is attached to a 791A hopper, either bally made it as a prototype or someone else made it.

value is unknown - you'd probably have to auction it to find out or see if someone really wants it and contacts you.  If you don't have the top sign that details higher pays, that's a big problem as finding out what it said will be difficult.

generally the "gimmick" machines that have more complex game play fetch a little more loot, but with the solid state machines abundant for a few hundred dollars there's a bit of a ceiling on all EM machines.

[LTSmash]

your hopper says 791 on it, but the way the two machines are mashed together in a 791 (per manual and advertising flyer) is different from what you have.

the 791 was more-or-less two 742A machines cobbled together with some stuff like door assemblies also bolted together to make one big door.   In effect, it was two machines that shared a pull handle, and you had to coin both machines to unlock the handle.  The top payout sign did allow for 6 reel pay combinations for jackpot sizes not possible otherwise.

details are in the bally 400 supplement manual found on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/.

bally made over 50 different model 791 machines for at least 15 different customers.  How many survived who knows ... I expect not a lot of demand for them once the casinos sold them off due to size/weight of the game.  The 791A was the first one.

for 791's, my info goes up to the 791-ZZP.  I have a schematic for a 791-ZV, and that game had two hoppers.  Since you only have one hopper and coin mech, I'd guess your machine was made in the aftermarket using parts from older machines. 

A hint for aftermarket is "Bally" doesn't appear in the artwork, and the back of the glass won't have bally style part numbers (stuff like G-350-xxx or G-349-xxx).  It'd be pretty ambitious for the aftermarket to made door castings, cabinets and parts needed to siamese the reel mechs together tho, but if ya look at some details like the wiring and how the payout counter is attached to a 791A hopper, either bally made it as a prototype or someone else made it.

value is unknown - you'd probably have to auction it to find out or see if someone really wants it and contacts you.  If you don't have the top sign that details higher pays, that's a big problem as finding out what it said will be difficult.

generally the "gimmick" machines that have more complex game play fetch a little more loot, but with the solid state machines abundant for a few hundred dollars there's a bit of a ceiling on all EM machines.

I’m so glad you responded! Somebody over at CoinOp Collector Forum recommended you as the person who would be best able to identify this machine.

When you say someone else may have made it as an aftermarket type thing, would that mean just a slot fan/collector or the casino itself?

Sounds like it’s possible that it’s a prototype, but could it also be possible it’s is a one-off (or two-off) machine Ballys built sort of special order for Golden Gate Casino?

Thank you!

[rgull77]

There is one for sale here locally (SoCal) with the top sign. Here is a picture of it.

Price is $1650 firm. If I had the room and it was around a grand, I'd be tempted.

Randy

[LTSmash]

There is one for sale here locally (SoCal) with the top sign. Here is a picture of it.

Price is $1650 firm. If I had the room and it was around a grand, I'd be tempted.

Randy

Oh wow, that’s great! May I ask where it is listed for sale?

I emailed Freddy Bailey as he used to be the Bally distributor for Europe in the early 1960s. He said he was thrown at first by the 742A but then added 742A-232 and said that’s what this machine is. It was known as “2 For The Money” and was made in 1964. He said the cabinet color isn’t the original color and it was probably painted to match the decor at Golden Gate Casino. He said it was one of the very first Bally slot machines to be made in the 1960s.

[wolftalk]

I emailed Freddy Bailey as he used to be the Bally distributor for Europe in the early 1960s. He said he was thrown at first by the 742A but then added 742A-232 and said that’s what this machine is. It was known as “2 For The Money” and was made in 1964. He said the cabinet color isn’t the original color and it was probably painted to match the decor at Golden Gate Casino. He said it was one of the very first Bally slot machines to be made in the 1960s.

I'm skeptical.  While the 742A-232 (25c) and 742A-232A (5c) were Bally branded games called "two for the money" in the docs, the reel tapes on either of those games had payout amount symbols and blanks ... e.g. $2.50.  There's nothing to suggest the game was anything more than 3 reels.

the schematic for the 742A-232A was w-1046-410.  Bally numbered the schematics in design/production order regardless of model number, so 410 would make that machine in the 1964/1965 timeframe.  The earliest model 791 I see had schem w-1046-348.  The latest model I have info for is 742A-450-100 (dollar) with schem w-1046-1531, which would be in the 1973-74 timeframe.  My docs end around then, but bally was making the EM machines until the early 1980's, and any model was available at any time after it was first produced.

'course, since bally was just starting their EM slot empire at that time, they may have used 742A-xxx numbering for some machines that looked very different from the standard 742A form factor or used the 742A model for oddball one-off machines.  Afaik tho, all 742A machines were 3 reel games in the same size/shape cabinet.

if bally made a customized game, it would be assigned a model number and have bally part numbers on the pieces like the glass.  Usually the word "bally" appeared in the artwork.  If a customer (casino) wanted something unique, they could go to a different company and get something made.  Those companies couldn't put "bally" on the glass, but until IGT came along, they typically were using bally games/parts.  The most common thing was taking an old machine that had lost play appeal and converting it to later model game play ... stuff like right to left pay or multi-line play.

[update] - the fey booklet on bally EM slots has a description for the 742A-232 ... it was a 3-reel standard looking 742A but you got two spins for your coin - so literally "two for the money".

unfortunately, you can't trust the serial/model number plate.   Technically, to sell a machine it had to have a serial number so there was a paper trail.  When machines were refurbed, any serial number was good enough (well, maybe not according to gaming commission rules, but nobody checked that closely).  To further muddy things up, some states like california had things like 25 year rules where the machines could be legally sold as antiques when they were 25 years old.  If you had a machine that was 20 years old, no problem ... slap a serial/model number plate on it from a 25+ year old machine and play stupid if someone noticed.

[LTSmash]

Interesting. This just gets curiouser and curiouser. I’m wondering how the person selling their machine has it listed/described.

I’m blown away by the knowledge people have on all this type of stuff. Although the mystery of this one isn’t cracked yet, the knowledge of schematics, inner workings, and history is quite impressive!

[702collector]

@LTSmash. Is your machine working? Where are you located?

[LTSmash]

@LTSmash. Is your machine working? Where are you located?

I’m in central California. I’m not sure if it works as the power cord has damage to the middle of it. I think the machine sat on the cord at some point and damaged it. I tried plugging it in anyway but no luck. Without the power, I can’t really test the rest of the functionality of it.

[shortrackskater]

I’m in central California. I’m not sure if it works as the power cord has damage to the middle of it. I think the machine sat on the cord at some point and damaged it. I tried plugging it in anyway but no luck. Without the power, I can’t really test the rest of the functionality of it.

Pull the hopper  out, and see how the cord is wired in. Should be easy to replace it. Post a CLOSE UP photo of that area. Check the plug as well. If it's been replaced, one of the wires may have come free from the screw internally.

[DavidLee]

Replacing the existing cord.
Typically the black and white wires were soldered to the fuse terminals.
These terminals are difficult to reach.
The alternative solution would be to cut the old cord at the back of the machine.
Then wire nut the new cord to the good part of the old cord inside the machine.