Bally 902 reel mech issues

[kjnuke]

Started going through the disaster reel mech on a 902 I picked up awhile back, machine pretty much worked, but reel one had slow spin. OK, time for reel mech maintenance, been there done that a bunch of times.
Air cylinder 1st, yep the piston seal has turned to rock, cleaned it all up, removed the seal, complete cleaning of the cylinder and piston, light coat of super lube and assembled.
On to the mech, wow, reel 2, 3 and 4 index lever arms are worn really bad, like a quarter of the thickness they should be from rubbing in the index discs, no problem I have some good ones from my 809 parts machine, swapped them out.
Time to get this thing lubed up and have those reels really spinning. Lubed everything up as usual, drive shaft bushings freed up, toggle links moving freely, index lever shaft I can turn with 2 fingers, clock, a few drops of oil, working well. everything good with side to side play, rollers freed up and working great.
Nothing out of the ordinary with A, B, and C switches, little dab of lube on the coin switch armature.
Pulled the E clips off of the reel shaft and removed the reels, cleaned up needle bearings and shaft, lubed up the needle bearings and re-assembled.
Put her all back together, cycled the reel mech, and reel 1 still spins slow, sigh.. Removed the reel bundle, maybe it's just still not freed up, checked everything and that's not the issue. What the heck? Time to get desperate and break out the 1100 manual. OK, turn the nut on the drive shaft to get 1 1/16 to the center of the roller stud on the half gear assembly, (it was way off) done, adjust  the stop at the bottom right, for max distance without it not locking up and releasing the handle , done. Put it all back together and reel 1still spins slow, sigh.. Out with the reel bundle again, let's see what's really going on here. Crap, the drive links to the crank assembly seem like they're slotted for reels 2, 3 and 4 when you start to cycle the mech, time to pull springs and see what's going on. Uh oh, the studs on the crank assembly that attach to the drive links are worn almost all the way through on reels 3 and 4. Drive links are ovaled out  for reels 2, 3 and 4, only reel 1 seems OK.
Wait? There's variators on reels 2, 3 and 4? Is that right? Not according to the manual, should only be on reel 4.
That's where I'm at, gonna have to disassemble the trip shaft to replace those worn crank assemblies, I have spare parts.
I still don't know if this is going to fix the slow reel 1 issue, it seems like that trip arm doesn't go forward as far as the others to engage the index disc's, but I can't figure out why. I wouldn't think it has anything to do with the variators, but don't know.
One of the pictures shows the trip arms right before the trip and reel 1 isn't as far forward.
Any help, suggestions appreciated.

[DavidLee]

Reel #1 mechanism is hard to keep clean because of its location next the chassis.
A slow index arm possibly indicates a good cleaning and re-lubrication.
Particularly the jack shaft the index arm rides on.
The arm should slide smoothly slightly side to side between the bushings.
Cleaning this one area might help.
If not.
Put the chassis on cardboard, prop up the right side an inch or two.
Apply penetrating oil to every moving part associated with the reel one, particularly to the kick and index mechanism. Do this 2 times in the evening and then again in the morning.
Wipe away all penetrating oil, then add machine oil to all moving parts. Run the mechanism then wipe off excess oil.

[kjnuke]

Thanks, but it's not the linkages. I've removed all of the springs and all of the links are completely free, even for reel 1.
I'm wondering if the slop in the other reel linkages from the worn parts are throwing off the timing for reel 1.
This is what's really throwing me off as it's not a linkage/binding issue. The index arm seems to not go forward as far for reel 1, but the crank assembly bottoms out on the frame/stop. Maybe that link is wrong, not sure. Might have nothing to do with it and it's just a worn parts issue.

[DavidLee]

So, if you manually pull the index arm back then release it.
If it returns slowly and or doesn’t return as far as the others.
I would suspect the spring that provides the force could be weak.

Operate the arms independently with the reels out.
They all should move/return inward rapidly.

Also, check the stationary wiper board for excess lubricant and or dirt.
Clean and lightly add then remove 98%.

Check the wiper board on the index arm for correct alignment, it might be bent into the stationary board.

[kjnuke]

Yep, all of the index arms snap back quickly. I also did the maintenance on the contact plates, cleaned the contacts and lightly lubed with super lube. Not the issue.

[kjnuke]

I also replaced the spring thinking that was the issue for the trip arm even though the old one looked fine. Didn't help.

[wolftalk]

if you hold the wiper/index arm back and spin the reel with your finger, does it spin as well and slow down around the same rate as the other reels?

slow spin can be too much friction or a bad kick.

if the reel itself is slow spinning, there's a set screw in the hub that along with a spring act as a brake to control the spin speed.  You can loosen the set screw to increase the spin rate ... supposedly.  I gotta admit, I've never experimented with how much of a difference it makes.

if the reel spin itself is same as the others, then you've got a kick issue.  Referring to the 2400 manual page 34 (attached), common friction issues are the roller bushing (26) on the peg on the drive lever (25) that engages the index disc doesn't roll or the drive lever doesn't rotate and snap back easily.

there are three different drive levers for 20, 22 and 25 stop machines.  I think david walz recently looked at the difference, but I forget the conclusion.  It's not a bad guess that the difference would be the geometry so a wrong lever would rotate a different distance during the windup ... you may need to swap the levers around or if you have spares, see if you have one exactly like the one on a working reel and bung it on.

a worn drive link (30) or cracked roll pin (16) in the crank trip shaft would also screw ya.

occasionally the drive lever extension spring (29) is scraping on the side plate.  It's normal, but if the side plate has crud on it can slow down the spring return.

wrt to having multiple variator links, I'd guess someone didn't have the correct timer latch links (20) so they put in variable length ones and maybe left off the ratchet pawl (13).  In effect, they used a variable length link and made the length appropriate for correct reel index sequencing.  The longer the link, the faster the reel indexes.

the 4 and 5 reel games had specific timer latch links that didn't have multiple holes in the front end and the hole/effective length was more-or-less in between the possible lengths you could get with the four hole link.

[kjnuke]

Rollers seem fine, it doesn't appear to be a friction issue.
I did back out those reel dampener screws previously for all of the reels although they spun fine where they were, just wanted to make sure that wasn't the issue.
I didn't know that the drive links were different lengths depending on how many stops, but thinking about it, it makes sense. This one is a 22 stop machine.
Drive links are definitely worn on reels 2, 3 and 4 along with the studs on reels 2 and 3 that they attach to. Weird thing is that the only one not worn is reel 1 which is the problematic slow spinning reel.
I'm gonna have to drive out the roll pins on the trip shaft and pull it to replace the worn studs on the crank assembly (I think that's what it's called) and replace those ovaled out drive links which I have. The drive links appear to be correct comparing to my 22 stop 809 parts machine, length is the same.
The timer latch links all have 4 holes in the front. Reel 1 and 2 are in the 2nd hole, 3 in the 3rd and 4 in the 4th. I moved reel 1 to the 1st hole because sometimes reels 1 and 2 indexed at about the same time, but with it in the 1st hole, reel 1 indexing almost immediately. I'll replace those variators on reels 2 and 3 with regular timer latch links, but they're off of an 809, hopefully they'll work, they're the same length as what's on reel 1 now.
Maybe one of the roll pins is cracked like you mentioned also. I'll know more after I drive them out.

[kjnuke]

Pulled the trip shaft and replaced the worn crank assemblies, replaced drive links and toggle links that were worn also.
Still slow spin on reel 1.
Wolftalk, I was locked in on drive links, not drive levers that were different, duh.
The drive levers are marked 22-10, I assume that's for a 22 stop machine which this is.
I have some other drive levers from a 22 stop machine marked 22-10R. I'll pull them from my parts machine and compare with what's in it now. I'll swap one out and see what happens. At this point I don't know what else to do, to me the levers just don't go into the index slots far enough to give a good kick.
Per the 1100 manual for 4 reels machines, reel one timer link has the adjustable 4 hole in position 2, reels 2 and 3 have the fixed lengths which I don't have, and reel 4 has the variator link.
The variator links in reels 2 and 3 that are in it now still have the pawl attached. I'm thinking just remove the pawl as you mentioned for those 2 and manually set the length for correct indexing since I don't have the correct links.

[wolftalk]

if you remove some/all of reels 2-4 from the shaft, does reel 1 spin well?

I vaguely recall an annoying machine that had a slow spin issue and it was only resolved after disassembling the reel mech and getting all the crud off the shafts and pivot points ... I guess the accumulated friction was slowing down the trip shaft (47) rotation which maybe results in less drive spring extension (29) snap-back and therefore force.

problem is it's a pita to change one thing and put it all back together to see if it makes a difference, so when cleaning everything works you're never sure what the problem was.

did you try swapping the extension drive springs (29)?  At least that's pretty easy compared to disassembling the entire mechanism.

[kjnuke]

Welp, you're onto something. Removing 2-4 reels and reel 1 spins great. I already pulled the trip shaft to replace those crank assemblies with the worn studs. No cracked roll pins that I found. Also replaced the worn drive links, but the weird thing is all of the wear/slop was on reels 2-4. Reel 1, the crank assembly and drive link was fine. I had everything apart except for the index lever shaft, but everything attached to it was completely free and not gunked up.
I did replace the drive spring for reel 1 also and it didn't help.
So what do you think is going on if it spins OK with the other reels removed? It seems like all of the force for tripping is going to reels 2-4 with the worn parts and reel 1 parts OK.
Really appreciate the help and suggestions to all who've replied.

[DavidLee]

Don’t have the solution, but excessive wear is a sign that something is binding and or the wrong parts are in place.

I’ve had a few machines over the years.
But never seen excessive wearing on any of the reels mechanism as your machine.
Except for the index arm rollers. But even in poor condition they still work.

[kjnuke]

Fixed the issue. I ended up pulling the index lever shaft and replaced 3 of the 4 (that's all I had) , 22-10 trip levers with 22-10R trip levers I had from my parts machine. Reel 4 with the old lever spins slightly slower than the other 3, but it's fine.
I compared the old to the new levers and the new ones looked slightly different and do go into the index disc slots a little farther.
Yeah, I've never had a reel mech with this much wear either, but I've never taken one apart this far and inspected.
It's been a great learning experience doing a complete reel mech rebuild, but also was a pita also, lol.
Again, thanks to all that replied on helping me to figure out the issue.

[wolftalk]

i have a 22-10R trip lever if you are eager to pull the shaft enough to install it.

email me your shipping address to slotpics@cdyn.com if you want it.

[kjnuke]

Will do, thank you!
Now to find the timer links for reels 2 and 3 for a 4 reel machine.
I adjusted those variators that are in it now as best I could and removed the pawl. Indexes OK, but reels 1 and 2 index pretty close to the same time.

[wolftalk]

Now to find the timer links for reels 2 and 3 for a 4 reel machine.
I adjusted those variators that are in it now as best I could and removed the pawl. Indexes OK, but reels 1 and 2 index pretty close to the same time.

I certainly have some links, but don't know if I have any without the 4 holes.  If I find something I'll send it/them with the trip lever.

[kjnuke]

Awesome. Thank you!

[wolftalk]

huh ... even the 4 holes links can be different. 

I had ones that had 5 and 6 stamped on them.  'course, the 2600 manual doesn't have a -5 part :-)

if any q's, you'll have to ask kjnuke ... I mailed the parts to him.  The image below is a scan tho, so you can get accurate measurements off it.

note I more-or-less lined up the ends of the link slot that pushes the latch pawl to release the wiper arm.  The longer the distance from that slot end to the link idler peg that goes in a hole on the other end of the link, the faster the reel indexes.

the black link length looks pretty much the same as the #6 link in the 3rd hole.  The rest are all different. 

[kjnuke]

Thanks again for sending those to me.
Should be able to get them indexing properly vs what I have now. It'll be good to get those variators out of reels 2 and 3 where they don't belong also.

[kjnuke]

Finally got around to installing those timer links wolftalk sent me, ended up using the 2 fixed length ones for reels 2 and 3.
Reels are spinning great and indexing properly. Thanks again wolftalk for sending them to me!
Hopper and upper unit maintenance done and new LEDs installed. Machine is dialed in and working great.
Thanks to everyone who replied for the help in figuring out the reel mech issues.