873-A Not resetting

[Phan000]

When I manually release the coin relay,  the machine will step up &  pay out wins.

Not sure what to look at.  The coin relay itself looks fairly well-adjusted.

[DavidLee]

Check to see if the latching mechanism is working properly and smoothly.

This switch gets a lot of use and its location makes it vulnerable to dirt and lubricants.

Try running a thin piece of card stock between the contacts in both positions.
This will remove any debris and or excess lubricant.
Contacts may look closed, but not making continuity. Check for continuity in both positions.

Also, make delicate adjustments on this switch. Adjusting one switch to far in some cases will cause an open when the switch moves in the opposite direction.

[wolftalk]

just to make sure we are talking about the same thing ...

the coin relay is on the left side of the coin mech.  You manually trip that and afterwards the game will accept more coins to enable lines 2-5?

or do you mean you're manually activating the coin switch on the door, but if you drop coins in they dump back to the tray?

send a video of what it's doing to slotpics@cdyn.com or put on a file sharing site if you like.

[Phan000]

I can add a video later.

I meant that if I manually open the coin switch on the mech,  the game will step up and play.

Switch looks ok, game need some payout work,  but wins generally pay.

After a win, or a no-win,  machine does nothing. Coins do not register.

[DavidLee]

Best to check for continuity between the coin switch and the coin relay.
Don’t have a schematic, so can’t tell exactly what wires on your machine are involved between the switch and coin relay.

A few of low tech possibilities would be a bad connection at the beau-plug.
Or the coin switch itself.

Try moving the reel mechanism in-n-out side to side slightly.
Also the coin switch itself might have carbon buildup.
For this, use the plastic handle on a screwdriver and tap the switch lightly.
Also, door plugs can develop bad connections, try moving the wires near where they enter the back of the plug.

This might sound silly, but it’s easy to do and might save lots of time.

[wolftalk]

the paperwork is on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

if after manually tripping the coin relay further coins work to enable paylines, the coin switch is ok.

if the coin switch is ok and after a spin the game is keeping the coins but nothing happens (line unit doesn't reset either), the single point of failure is a switch on the handle release relay with blue/yellow (23-1 on middle blade) and blue/red (21-1) wires that is 2/3 of a SPDT switch.

the connection between 23-1 and 21-1 when the handle is locked isn't working.

the only other possibility as david said is a plug connection or broken wire.

[Phan000]

I let this frustrating machine sit for a few months,  back at it now.


It is currently in the same condition.  Manually tripping coin switch allows full
Game play, step up & payout.

But the coin trip wire does nothing.  I looked at the handle release switches.  They appear ok.

If I use a probe and push to make release switch make contact, it does engage the solenoid, and plays correctly.

[wolftalk]

bally wasn't nice in their parts naming, so let's make sure we are talking about the same thing:

1] coin switch - underneath the coin mech on the door.  Has a tripwire that a coin briefly pushes down when it exits the mech.

2] coin relay - on the left/bottom/rear of the reel mech.  After a spin, holding the coin switch down should trip this relay and the "coin accepted light" turns on.

3] handle release relay - inside the cabinet above the handle box.  When you let the coin switch tripwire go up, the handle release relay will trip if the coin relay tripped.

depending on the type of game, pushing the coin switch tripwire down/up the first and more times may do something.  On multi-line games like the 873, holding coin switch down the first time should also reset the line unit so only payline 1 is active, and pushing down/releasing the coin switch after that should step up the line unit to add another payline.

there's a few ways to check things in the circuit, but the easiest thing is probably do this:

1] make sure the line unit is stepped up once so the 2nd payline is enabled
2] push down the coin switch tripwire
3] if nothing happens, briefly jumper the yellow and blue/yellow wires together on the coin switch
4] if nothing happens, manually trip the coin relay on the reel mech
5] push down and release the coin switch trip wire again
6] if nothing happens, you probably have a plug connection issue or the coin switch is bad.  It the line unit steps up, then likely the switch on the handle release relay needs attention.

the switch on the handle release relay you care about has the blue/yellow 23-1 wire from the coin switch on a middle blade and that blade needs to be connecting to the blade with the blue/red 21-1 wire when the handle release relay is untripped (handle is locked).

[Phan000]

Thanks & to clarify my specious post-  when the coin relay, or handle release is manually tripped, the machine will step up and make winning payouts.  It does not otherwise work.

The top unit never resets after a win, but the reset solenoid is functional.

I tried all 6 of the steps mentioned, and tried a replacement coin switch, no progress.

I’ll get a photo of the handle release relay later today, but the 23-1 and 21-1 switch does appear to be closed when the handle is locked.

[wolftalk]

I tried all 6 of the steps mentioned, and tried a replacement coin switch, no progress.

referring to post #7, if nothing happens on [3], the problem is not the coin switch.

I’ll get a photo of the handle release relay later today, but the 23-1 and 21-1 switch does appear to be closed when the handle is locked.

appearance can bite you :-)  If the circuit isn't working, clean the switch and verify switch blade overtravel (when possible) to make sure ... or better, jumper the two wires together so the switch contacts don't matter.

Thanks & to clarify my specious post - when the coin relay, or handle release is manually tripped, the machine will step up and make winning payouts.  It does not otherwise work.

- the first coin after a spin trips the coin relay (coin switch down) and trips the handle release relay (coin switch back up)
- the 2nd-5th coin steps up the line unit.  "Step" = rotate the wipers one ratchet tooth.

if after a spin you manually trip the handle release relay but leave the coin relay untripped, the game will function almost normally wrt adding more coins to make the line unit step up and enable lines.  Payout will work.   

If you look closely tho, you'll see the "insert coin" and "coin accepted" lights aren't working right.  "coin accepted" never turns on, and "insert coin" doesn't turn off after the 5th line is enabled.

if the line unit is stepping up on each coin after the handle release relay is tripped manually, the coin switch and door/reel plug connections are ok and your only problem is getting the coin relay to trip and the line unit to reset on the first coin.

the likeliest thing is the switch on the handle release relay looks ok, but probably isn't.  If that switch turns out to be good, then you have multiple problems.   The first thing to see is after a spin, push and hold the coin switch down.  Does the line unit reset relay power?

if you want to get scientific, attach a voltmeter probe to orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil and the other probe to blue/red wire 21-1 on the handle release switch (or any of the other places it connects ... see schematic around D-5).  The line unit reset relay coil is easy to clip onto with one end of an alligator clip jumper wire and connect the other end of the jumper to the meter probe.   

see if you measure 50VAC when you push the coin switch down when the handle release relay is untripped.  If you get under 50V, something in the circuit path is cruddy or not working at all.

[Phan000]

Ok, progress!  As Wolftalk suspected, that handle release switch was not fully engaging.

One last issue-  the machine is paying out early.  When it hits cherries on the left reel,  or two cherries with the middle,  it begins to pay out before the third reel has stopped.

[wolftalk]

One last issue-  the machine is paying out early.  When it hits cherries on the left reel,  or two cherries with the middle,  it begins to pay out before the third reel has stopped.

at least we have a schematic for the 873-A ... but the answer will likely be the same as they guy recently had with an 1168.  See posts #13 and later here: /nlg/index.php?topic=48198.0

the payout circuit should not be energized until the reel mech C-1 switch closes, and C-1 shouldn't close until after the reels are indexed.

all that timing is done by the clock and black timer link bar on the left side of the reel mech along with the front shaft and latch links under the reel mech. 

you want the peg poking out of the timer link bar to move the reel mech C switches to the right as late as possible while still getting good switch travel and contact wiping.

just in case, the reel mech C switches are the right vertical stack pointing down above the coin relay, and the C-1 switch is the one closest to the mounting bracket.  Should have grey/red and brown wires on the switch blades.

for reference, there's a reel mech left picture in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/873-A/pics/ that's too big to post here that should give ya an idea of how much the blades are typically bent after a spin, and notice the thick/kinked travel limit bar that prevents the switch blade to the right of it from moving too far left when the timer link bar is pushed back.  There's a video here:

   https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Pushing_Timer_Link.mp4

in that video the limit bar is too far left and the switch to the left hits it .... you ideally don't want that so the limit bar should be adjusted right a little so you wind up like the picture of the 873A referenced above.

[Phan000]

I tried adjusting those vertical  stacks as described.  Not much success, will give it some more attempts.

I did notice that the top unit is stepping up to the second position with just one coin.  Would this also be related to the handle release switch stack?

[wolftalk]

I did notice that the top unit is stepping up to the second position with just one coin.  Would this also be related to the handle release switch stack?

yup. 

it's pretty much the same circuit as the 809.  The 873 has a line unit, the 809 has an odds unit.  They behave the same way.

the switch with the blue/yellow 23-1 wire on the long blade:
- connects to blue/red 21-1 when the handle release relay is latched (handle locked)
- connects to brown/red 61-1 when the handle release relay is tripped.

there's a couple ways you can the behavior you are seeing, but the easiest thing to check is verify that the 23-1 to 61-1 switch half is open when the handle is locked.

if it's not that and the game works right once after power on, make sure the line unit end of stroke switch is opening.  That's the switch with the yellow and blue/orange wires on the ratchet side of the line unit.

[Phan000]

The switches on the handle stack are adjusted properly.

Stroke switch pulls away when stepping.

Still going straight to two coins.  It happens on the upstroke of the coin switch, if that helps.

[wolftalk]

the general idea of the circuit is:
- when the handle release relay is tripped and the coin switch goes down, the line unit step-up relay powers
- the coin switch goes back up, the line unit step-up solenoid powers
- the solenoid plunger is pulled into the coil, the line unit end-of-stroke switch opens and the line unit step-up relay unpowers
- the solenoid power is disconnected and springs pull the step-up arm back to reset position. A pawl on the arm pushes the ratchet around one tooth, which moves the wipers.

so while the line unit step-up relay may be doing stuff when the coin switch is down, the line unit step-up solenoid shouldn't do anything until the coin switch is back up.

here's where business cards come in handy ... or did when they were still used and you hadn't thrown them all in the free drawing bin at the liquor barn.  Now you can use a dollar bill or something similar of little value :-)

what you really want to know is what the line unit step up relay is doing, but bally inconsiderately put a big white piece of wood with lamps in the way of seeing it.

assuming you don't have extension jones plug cables so you can put the top insert board on the table and connect it to the cabinet with the extension cables, the easiest things are:

1] use alligator clip jumpers clamped onto the coil lugs of the relay and hang them over the wood panel so you can attach a meter to them when the board is shoved it.

in this case, you want to know if the coil is being powered, so you look for 50VAC when the coin switch is down and watch for voltage blips when the coin switch goes back up.

2] listen, but the problem is other things may be happening that you'll hear. 

3] look, but the only way to do that easily is remove the screws holding the white board to the brackets and flip the board out of the way.

4] the paper

even if you don't know if line unit step-up relay is powering, make sure it can't unless something like a short or a stuck closed switch is present.  Since the line unit step-up relay is powered via the handle release relay switch, stick paper between the blades so wire 23-1 can't connect to 61-1.  Does the line unit never step up then?

if it still steps up, look at the line unit step up relay for the switch with blue/orange wire 27-1 that connects to 61-1 when the relay is powered.  Stuck closed?  If not sure, stick paper in that also.

can ya email highest possible resolution picture of the entire handle release relay - including enough wiring to see the wire colors - to slotpics@cdyn.com when the handle release is latched/reset and tripped?

[Phan000]

I removed the white board.  It appears that the line unit step up relay is behaving as you described. I made a video to demonstrate.

https://youtu.be/BLMF_fPhucI?si=b8i4cw8oZWyhfMiI

I also tried the business card between 23-1 and 61-1.  It does not step up with the paper inserted.

[wolftalk]

in the video, the top relay is the line unit step-up relay.  The relay below it is the line unit reset relay.

on the coin when the reset relay powers, the step-up relay should not be powering, so need to figure out why it is.

if ya slow the video down, it looks like the step-up relay powers when the reset relay unpowers.

problem with dropping a coin thru is it happens so fast you can't see exactly when the relays power, so spin the reels then hold down the coin switch and see what the line unit step-up and reset relays are doing.

for the first coin, the handle release relay and step-up relay shouldn't do anything while the coin switch is down and the reset relay should stay powered.  Does it?

if ya want, take another video and say what you are doing wrt pushing down the coin switch and then letting it go a bit later. 

you may be getting bit by the "it doesn't matter if all three blades/contacts of a double pole switch are touching at the same time when the switch is changing state ... until it does" problem.  A SPDT switch is always supposed to disconnect first before connecting to the other side, but usually it doesn't matter. 

the exception is a rarely used and labelled as "make before break" SPDT switch.  In an MBB switch, you need all three contacts touching at the same time when the long/moving blade is switching position.

ideally, the bottom switch on the handle release relay disconnects the blue/yellow -> blue/red wires connection before it makes the blue/yellow -> brown/red connection, so see if you can adjust the blades to make sure that happens.

if due to the switch gaps and coil response time the bottom switch on the handle release relay switch connects all three blades together briefly AND the yellow highlighted circuit is still closed/connected at that time, the line unit step-up coil will power.  The step-up coil should only power via the green highlight circuit which only works after the handle release relay is tripped.

note for this to be a problem all these need to happen:
- the handle release relay switch connects all three blades together briefly
- the line unit reset relay switch in the yellow path barely opens (stays closed as long as possible) or is stuck closed
- the line unit open at 0 switch poking out over the line unit ratchet barely opens (it stays closed as long as possible) and/or wiper reset is sluggish due to cruddy contact plate or gunked up ratchet.

it's also possible the coin switch is wired wrong but in a way that still mostly works.  You want the yellow wire on the C terminal.  In the most common coin switch with three terminals poking out the bottom, C is the left one.  However, there's no guarantee of that so ya gotta either look on the thing for C/COM, NO and NC markings or use a meter to figure it out.

you want:
- yellow -> orange/green (NC) when coin switch tripwire is up
- yellow -> blue/yellow (NO) when tripwire is down

[Chris-socal]

Wow. That was like a great monologue from a movie! So well explained and I learned something new about switches…..MBB!

[Phan000]

The line unit step-up relay does fire first.  Not sure why.

Here is the video
https://youtu.be/PX7l_s7oE08?si=9MK-O6G9ly_BZVj7

Not sure if the top switch is supposed to travel with the downward motion as seen here.

https://youtube.com/shorts/ElfkbgeS4Pc?si=NqqHb9FvDHj0Pkxj

I cleaned the line unit wipers, and the ratchet.  Operates quickly.

I tried adjusting the switch for the zero stop.  It seems to pull away as expected.

I tried adjusting the line unit step up switch.   Had the machine stepping properly,  but it was intermittent & often either reverted to instant two coins and or skipping subsequent coins.