Bally 809-ZZB Payout Problems

[jvertson]

So I have slowly gotten the bugs out one by one. The last one was a run away hopper, that is now fixed. The machine will pay like it should on one coin up to 20 coins (Any Bars), after that it will only pay no more than 40 coins regardless of how many coins are deposited. The top unit is stepping up and resetting and the hopper seems to be resetting fine also. I am at wits end with this thing, I have spent hours combing through the internet and even used AI but cannot find the issue.

[jvertson]

I did find that when I set the reels for a jackpot, the wiper arms on reel 1 and reel 2 are in a different position than on reel 3. Could this be the cause of payout problems? If so, how do you adjust the wipers so the are the same?

[jvertson]

I put a camera in the upper case to watch the multiplier unit and it is not functioning during jackpot wins. What signals this to work?

[wolftalk]

So I have slowly gotten the bugs out one by one. The last one was a run away hopper, that is now fixed. The machine will pay like it should on one coin up to 20 coins (Any Bars), after that it will only pay no more than 40 coins regardless of how many coins are deposited. The top unit is stepping up and resetting and the hopper seems to be resetting fine also. I am at wits end with this thing, I have spent hours combing through the internet and even used AI but cannot find the issue.

50, 100 and 200 pays on that machine use the "outboard wipers" that are on the metal carriage in front of the spiral cam.

possible problems are:

1] the F trace under the top wiper finger has burned so the finger is not electrically connecting to wire attached to the F trace on the payout counter disc - or the finger is just not making good contact to the F trace

2] the traces are cruddy

3] the bars match relay isn't working.

on the 809-ZZB, pays of 50, 100 and 200 are for single/double/triple matched bars.  In all cases, the bars match relay needs to power.  If the bars match relay doesn't power, the game will pay like it's a mixed bar win.

I did find that when I set the reels for a jackpot, the wiper arms on reel 1 and reel 2 are in a different position than on reel 3. Could this be the cause of payout problems? If so, how do you adjust the wipers so the are the same?

the different reel wiper position is correct.  Reel 3 doesn't have cherries.  While bally could have not used slot depth 1 position on reel 3, they chose the shift all the symbols over one position on reel 3. 

e.g.
reels 1-2: symbols CH thru BAR/3 are depths/positions 1-7
reel 3: symbols OR thru BAR/3 are depths/positions 1-6.

I put a camera in the upper case to watch the multiplier unit and it is not functioning during jackpot wins. What signals this to work?

the odds unit disc wiper position determines if a multiplier unit is inserted into the payout counter step-up circuit.

get the pays for one coin working first.  After that, multiplication is just the odds unit and chosen multiplier unit not sending pulses to the payout counter.  For example, if you play 3 coins and have a BA-BA-BA win for 150, that is paid using the 50 payout trace on the payout counter (the one coin pay amount = the payout trace used).  The way it works is:

1] coin exits hopper and closes a switch
2] the pulse from that switch closure is routed by the odds unit wipers to the X3 unit solenoid coil
3] the X3 unit steps
4] at every 3rd step of the X3 unit, the wipers on that unit also pass the step-up pulse to the payout counter step-up coil

net affect is the multiplier unit steps for every coin dispensed, but only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5 of those step-up pulses is also sent to the payout counter depending on 2-5 coins played.

for single coin play, the multiplier units don't do anything.  For 2+ coins, only the multiplier associated with the number of coins plays should step.

note if the pay gets high enough, the game may go into jackpot lockup.  What happens depends on what the customer wanted.  The most common thing was the game pays 200 coins and the rest is hand-paid by a casino attendant.  Other common configurations were the game pays no coins (full amount hand-paid) or rarely the game pays everything in coins (and the casino probably has to fill the hopper to complete the pay, which they didn't like doing).

[jvertson]

I just cleaned the payout board and checked the wipers and they all seem okay. I am wondering if the solenoids might be weak and the that won't let the fingers get past 20 pays. Everything pays correct until I get to the 3 small bars. I checked the switches on the bars match relay but they look okay also. I am starting to really hate this machine.

[wolftalk]

if you have a problem with the outboard wipers AND the bars match relay is powering, the payout relay won't power and you get nothing.

jumper the 50 trace to the F trace on the payout counter disc.  if nothing happens, the problem is not on the payout counter.

you'll want to verify on a BA-BA-BA reel result:

1] almost zero ohms from wire 90 on reel 3 wiper board to 48-2 on reel 1 wiper board
2] almost zero ohms from 90 above to wire 43 on the bars match relay if you push the relay armature plate down on the coil top
3] almost zero ohms from wire 43 on the bars match relay to the 50 trace on the payout counter disc
 
the outboard wipers connect wire 43 to wire 93 on the F trace, so with that and the above that's your entire wire 90 -> payout relay circuit path.  You know the F trace to payout relay and stuff getting to wire 90 is good since other pays work.

[jvertson]

The bars match relay coil is bad. I can activate it manually and it pays. When I test it there is no continuity. I cannot find a replacement (KKN 116) What coils can I use for this?

[DavidLee]

There are a couple of pinball suppliersthat sell aftermarket coils.
Also, eBay sellers have coils. What is the Bally coil number? I might have one.
Save the wrapper on the coil you have and apply it over the new one.
Just to make it look original and identification purposes, if possible.

[sixcardmark]

Newer coil crossover #"s

https://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0479.html

[wolftalk]

if the coil wire is just broken at an end where it attaches to a lug, you have a 50-50 chance that you can unwind a turn or two of wire, scrape off the insulation and resolder it to the lug.

if the broken end is buried under all the turns of wire around the spool, then you're outa luck unless you want to unwind the entire wire and rewind it back on (most people use a drill to spin the coil spool).

typical coil used in those relays was G-33-2800 which replaced the older KKN relays.  G33-2800 is sold by pinball resource for $11.50 new as a price reference.

[jvertson]

Okay, I replaced the bars match relay coil  and adjusted the tension on the disc in the hopper and all my combinations on 1st coin are paying correctly. The coil was dead...

Thank you for the help..

Coins 2-5 are not paying correctly and sometimes the bell will ring when I pull the handle (something new) and it had a funny burnt smell after running for a while during payout testing. I was running the hopper quite a bit.

Step-up coil seems to be working when multiple coins are deposited but payout is not correct.

[wolftalk]

burnt smell may or may not be a problem ... mainly look for charred coil wrappers.

could just be running the hopper long enough got the motor winding warm and crud on the wire started smoking a little.

bell ringing on handle pull implies either a payout relay switch isn't opening (orange/green 74-1 to green/white 45) after a payout finishes or the wipers on reels are skewed a little and bridging rivets in adjacent arcs (one rivet up or down) - especially check reel 1.

if playing multiple coins is moving the payout column light correctly on the top glass, the odds unit is working right.  While you could have a problem with wiper connections to the contact plate.  The diagram below is the odds unit and you particularly care about the wiper finger pair that is connecting wire 18-2 to other circuits around 2:00 in the diagram.  e.g. 18-2 connects to 13-2 when two coins are played. 

you can eliminate the odds unit by attaching a jumper between 18-2 and 13-2 on the lugs, play two coins and set up a win.

what is the actual pay problem?   i.e. no pay, short pay, or overpay All pays or just the high pays?

normally if a single coin pays correctly, the game will pay multiple coins and an overpay is caused by wiper->contact plate issues on whichever multiplier unit (X2-X5) is being used to alter the rate that the payout counter is stepping up.

[jvertson]

I adjusted the payout relay and that seems to have cured the bell.

More than one coin gives erratic payouts, mostly under pays.

[wolftalk]

More than one coin gives erratic payouts, mostly under pays.

you'll probably have to take apart the X2-X5 units and clean the traces on the contact plate board.

once ya figure out how to get the reel/hub piece off, it's pretty fast.  The trick is stepping the reel to a position where a flat spot is next to the plastic arm connected to the coil plunger and using a few fingers hold back various bits so the reel and hub can be pulled off once the e-clip is removed.

look on youtube or wherever for cleaning bally score reels - the entire mechanism is a bally score reel - albiet ones with 9, 10 and 12 steps while a pinball machine just needs the 10 step one.

[jvertson]

I cleaned all the x reels and put everything back together and it appears that only x3 is working.

[wolftalk]

the appropriate Xy reel steps when a coin ejects, where y=number of coins played when y>1

e.g. when playing two coins, is the X2 reel stepping every time a coin ejects?

the idea is the Xy reel steps for every coin, and at every yth step the payout counter also steps up.

you probably get an incorrect pay the first time after manually stepping an X unit because they don't have a homing circuit.  When a pay completes the first time, the unit will be stopped at a correct position and subsequent pays will all be ok.

if you want to test the stuff with the top insert board out of the machine:
- jumper orange wire 70 from a coil inside the cabinet to wire 70 on any coil on the insert board. 
- attach one end of jumper to yellow wire 30 someplace like the coin switch and repeatedly touch/remove the other jumper end to wire 18-2 on the odds disc when the odds disc is stepped up at least once.

depending on the step of the odds disc, one of the Xy units should step every time you touch/remove the 30 jumper to 18-2

if the Xy units are stepping but the payout counter isn't AND the payout counter is working for single coin plays, the wipers on the Xy unit aren't making a good connection to the contact plate traces or you have damaged traces.

[jvertson]

So, I figured out that the coils on the X units were bad. I replaced them and now the x units are functioning and paying reasonably close to where they should be (one or two coins off in most cases so far.) I also replaced the florescent lights with LED and it looks good. The only other issue seems to be getting the bell and the tower lights to function when you hit bars. I know both bulbs and the bell are good. Thanks for the help with this/ learned lots about how these things work..

[wolftalk]

if single coin play payouts are off, it depends on whether you have an overpay or underpay.

underpay is often a problem with the wiper->trace connection on the payout counter disc.  Cruddy traces, burnt/pitted trace ends making the traces shorter, etc..  If the underpays are for most payouts, then often the contact plate needs to be loosened and twisted a little so the wiper contacts step off the trace ends at the right time.

you can manually reset and step up the payout counter and verify the contact is on a trace on the pay-1 step, and off the trace on the payout amount step.   e.g. if the payout is 10, the wipers are on the 10 trace on step 9 and off the 10 trace on step 10.

overpay is typically caused by the payout counter missing a step-up pulse.  There's redundant switches on the roller arm on top of the hopper that close when a coin exits, but you've got the rest of the stuff in the wire 75 down to the step-up coil on the schem as possible issues ... including plug connections that aren't shown.

for the bell and tower light you have a separate 6V circuit path from wire 30 thru the payout relay switch and reel wipers than the circuit used to power the 50V payout relay. 

quick check is verify almost zero ohms from wire 20-1 on reel 3 to wire 10-2 on reel 1 when you have a bar win.  If the game is still wired like an 809-ZZB, even mixed bars should ring the bell for the duration of the payout.

if you have zero ohms, then check for 6VAC on wire 20-1 during a payout (other probe on blue wire 20 on the bell or any handy lamp socket).

[jvertson]

I adjusted the switch on the payout roller and it seems to be paying like it should now.

In searching for the reason the bell was not working, I found the 10-2 wire on reel #1 looked like it was soldiered but in fact it was just laying on the tab. Once I fixed that, the bell and light worked after a bars win. The bell does sound kind of soft, not very loud but it does work now.

The machine is now in good working order...

Thanks for the help.

[DavidLee]

That’s great. Run the bell as is, it might right itself with use.
The striker can be tweaked very slightly if need be.
Also, check the cover, it could be out of alignment or wires can interfere with bell.