Bally 1090-1 Inconsistent Payouts

[GottliebBob]

Working on a quarter Bally 1090-1 slot for a neighbor.

The problem I have is that the game will payout one. two or three times and then not after that.  Through experimentation I determined that the Payout Counter wasn't getting reset.  If I manually reset it then payouts will occur again....until the Payout Counter doesn't reset again.

I pulled down the 1090-1 schematic off the CDYN site.  It is a very basic circuit but I am stumped by some of the nomenclature used to ID one of the switches.

There is a NO Reel Mech B-3 switch shown in the path to the reset coil.  Is this referring to to the B Switch Units on the Reel Mech as shown on page 23 of the 5000 manual?  If not what does this designation mean?

One other fact that may play into this....the machine is set to play on tokens.  The ones being used are smaller than a quarter.  Could this cause the hopper issues that could lead to this problem?

Thanks!

[wolftalk]

the reel mech B switches are the horizontal ones above the coin relay on the left side of the reel mech.

manual 5000, page 38, #82 is B-3

usually the problem is the payout counter open at zero switch, whici is the small switch in front of the spiral cam on the payout counter unit with wires 30 and 78-1.

that switch needs to be closed when the payout counter has stepped up, and open at reset.  All it does is prevent the payout counter reset coil from firing when it doesn't need to, so you can verify it's the problem by jumpering it closed and seeing if the payout counter resets.

pedantically correct the switch should close on the first step of the payout counter, but practically the second step is ok too since 2 is the minimum payout.

if it's not that switch, suspect plug connections.

the payout counter is electrically stepped, so all that matters coin diameter-wise is the switches operated by the pivot roller (#4 on page 18) pulse closed when a coin passes under the roller.

make sense?

if you're bored, email as many highest possible resolution pics of the machine internals as you can stand to take to slotpics@cdyn.com and I'll add them to the 1090-1 info.  Pics of entire sides, top and bottom of units is very helpful ... like in this case coulda verified B-3 exists, but I don't have a pic of a 1090 reel mech left side.

 

[GottliebBob]

Wolftalk,

Thanks so much for the quick, comprehensive and very useful reply.....much appreciated.

My best guess was this was the switch the schematic was referring to but it is nice to have confirmation of that.

I was going to check that Payout Counter open at zero switch as well since it is in the path to drive the reset coil.

Interesting point you make about the token needing to successfully operate the Pivot Roller switches.  One thing I have noticed is that the small, digital Win Counter does not always advance the correct amount on a payout.  Sounds like one of the switches would be the culprit and that the smaller token diameter could be the cause or at least a contributor.

Two more token questions.  My neighbor has significantly more tokens that are slightly bigger than a quarter.  She would like to use these if possible.  Would the slightly larger size bother the hopper?  Am I correct that the only adjustment I would need to make to get the machine to operate on the larger tokens is to adjust the coin acceptor for the bigger diameter?

I will definitely try and get you some pictures.

Thanks!

[Pinballwizard55]

You using tokens is of no consequence, you need to check 3 sets of points. the first and most likely is the small set located on the metal carriage that mounts over the circular disc on the left side of the hopper. next go to the long set of contacts that are affected by the small hopper reset coil inside the hopper mechanism. lastly there is a set of points that is triggered by the metal bracket on the left side of the reel mech that moves from front to back of the reel mech when you pull the handle. these lay horizontally and move up and down.

[DavidLee]

Manually operate the zero switch associated with the payout step up unit.
Sometimes these switches stick in the open position due to lack of lubrication.
Meanwhile a mechanic will spend hours troubleshooting a machine.

[GottliebBob]

Pinball Wizard55,

Thanks for the info on the the adjustments needed for using a larger token.  Much appreciated.

[GottliebBob]

DavidLee,

Thanks for that suggestion....I checked that switch, cleaned it and checked that it was closing when the unit steps.  Still have the problem.  See my next post to WolfTalk for more details.

[GottliebBob]

Wolftalk,

I have just sent three emails to slotpics@cdyn.com with the photos you requested of the Bally 1090-1 I am working on.  Let me know if they came through alright or if you need additional pics.

I cleaned the Payout Counter open at zero switch and made sure it was closing when the unit stepped.  That did not clear my problem of the Payout Counter not resetting after a payout.  I also tried your suggestion of jumpering that switch closed and it still fails to reset after a payout.

When the unit fails to reset and a second winning combo is hit with no tokens dispensed, when I reach in and manually reset the unit by pushing in the reset plunger the machine then pays out.  Is this proper?  Does this present any clues as to what is causing the malfunction?

I also located the B-3 switch on the Reel mech.  I cleaned it (and all other switches on the Reel mech).  Since the B-3 switch is not operated by a coil I was not able to verify the switch is properly closing.  Can you tell me what I need to do when I have the Reel mech out of the machine and on my bench to safely activate the variety of levers involved to close this switch so I can verify it is closing?

As I type this I realized there is one thing I did not do to the Payout Counter that I should have.  I did not jumper 50 volts to the coil to verify that it is working.  It looks normal (no signs of overheating) but still...

Thanks for your help on this.....I really appreciate it.

[wolftalk]

overexplaining below is for other folks in the future ... I know it's mostly tmi for you :-)

I have just sent three emails to slotpics@cdyn.com with the photos you requested of the Bally 1090-1 I am working on.  Let me know if they came through alright or if you need additional pics.

I cleaned the Payout Counter open at zero switch and made sure it was closing when the unit stepped.  That did not clear my problem of the Payout Counter not resetting after a payout.  I also tried your suggestion of jumpering that switch closed and it still fails to reset after a payout.

added to https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1090-1, thanks!

a pic of the entire game front, the entire inside of the door, inside the cabinet with the hopper and reels removed and the payout counter would be great if you have a chance.

there's only two switches in the payout counter reset coil circuit ... the zero switch with yellow (30) and orange/black (78-1) wires and a reel mech B-3 switch (horizontal switch above the coin relay with the 78-1 wire on one blade).

quick test is attach a jumper to the 78-1 wire and other end on yellow wire (30) on the coin switch.  If you spin the reels and the payout counter doesn't reset, either a plug connection is bad or the coil is bad.

you can also touch a jumper from wire 30 directly to black/white 85-1 wire on the B-3 switch or on the reset coil and/or measure the resistance of the coil ... should be a C-28-1100 coil and measure around 15 ohms.

When the unit fails to reset and a second winning combo is hit with no tokens dispensed, when I reach in and manually reset the unit by pushing in the reset plunger the machine then pays out.  Is this proper?  Does this present any clues as to what is causing the malfunction?

yup, that's right.

the payout counter has to reset on every spin.  If it doesn't, you can only get paid for a higher win than previously obtained and you only get paid the difference.

the idea is the reel wipers complete circuits to power one or more of the copper traces on the payout counter disc, and as coins are ejected the payout counter steps and the wipers rotate occasionally (frequency depends on how many coins played).  When the wipers step off the end of the energized traces, payout ends.

for example if the payout counter is not resetting and you are playing one coin:

- get a 2 payout and the payout counter will step twice to get off the end of the 2 trace and the payout ends. 
- you then get a five payout, the payout counter will step 3 more times to get off the end of the 5 trace.  You'll get 3 more coins.
- if you get a 2 pay again, you get nothing because the wipers are not connected to the 2 trace anymore.

I also located the B-3 switch on the Reel mech.  I cleaned it (and all other switches on the Reel mech).  Since the B-3 switch is not operated by a coil I was not able to verify the switch is properly closing.  Can you tell me what I need to do when I have the Reel mech out of the machine and on my bench to safely activate the variety of levers involved to close this switch so I can verify it is closing?

B-3 closes when the peg underneath on the black bar lifts the switch stack.  Normally that happens after the reel kick as the black bar is sliding towards the front of the mech.

you can either wind up and kick the reels by pushing the U-shaped thing on the right side of the reel mech into the air cylinder, or you can just push the black bar back enough to make the peg close B-3.

pushing the black bar is a lot less effort :-) 

note due to the shape of the slot in the rear bar end, when the reel mech is being wound up, B-3 does not close.  The rear main shaft needs to be in it's after-kick position for the black bar to lift enough to close B-3 ... that happens after the reels start spinning and they are being latched.  However, if you just push the black bar yourself, the rear shaft is in its rest position so the black bar will close B-3 during push back.

there's video for windup and kick clock side and pushing the timer link (black bar) in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/, but on that reel mech there's no B-3 ... it's B-1 riding on the bar edge that does payout counter reset on that game, so there isn't a peg or B-3 switch.

[update] - there's now also a video pushing the timer link on a game with a B-3 switch from 1168_bally.

As I type this I realized there is one thing I did not do to the Payout Counter that I should have.  I did not jumper 50 volts to the coil to verify that it is working.  It looks normal (no signs of overheating) but still...

Thanks for your help on this.....I really appreciate it.

if the coil is open and not fried, it could be a coil wire broken off a lug.  Not likely tho as you don't get the repeated mechanical jolts like a flipper coil. 

If it is a broken wire, you have a 50-50 chance you can unwind one loop from the bobbin, scrape off the insulating varnish and reattach the wire.

one of end the coil wire is buried under all the rest of the winding tho, and you usually can't unwind one turn if you need that end of the coil wire longer.    You'd have to unwind the entire coil and rewind the wire back on.  Easier to buy a new coil, but it's possible if desperate and easiest of you attach the coil spool to a drill to spin it.

if you do reattach a coil wire, leave some slack.  If the wire is stretched taunt, it will break much more easily over time.

[GottliebBob]

Wolftalk,

Thanks for the awesome reply!  So much great info!

I will get you additional photos but it will take me a bit to get that done.

When you list a plug connection as a possibly cause of my problem are you talking about the two Molex plugs that connect the Payout to the rest of the game?  I attempted to reseat these to knock off any possible correction but I could not get them to disconnect.  I didn't want to muscle them too hard and risk damaging them.  I am strickly  an EM pinball mechanic and as such I have no experience repairing Molex plugs or any tools to do so.

After thinking about it is does make sense that resetting a stuck Payout Counter unit would cause a a payout to occur.  I did finally notice the phenomenon you mentioned where if the Payout Counter isn't getting reset a higher level payout will result in getting some additional tokens dispensed.  Once I realized this was happening it became obvious that my Payout Counter was never resetting.

Appreciate the advice on how to make sure the B-3 switch is closing properly....I will definitely check out the video.

I didn't mention it (and forgot to check for it) but from my pinball work I am aware of the possibility of a broken wire.  Those fine wires going from the solder lugs into the coil are very fragile.  If I do have a break i will replace the coil....far less work than trying to repair it.

I am going to have to step away from this for 10 days to two weeks.  The Texas Pinball Festival is this weekend and that will consume my next four days.  Then My neighbor who owns the machine is going to be out of town for a week.  But i will be back with more feedback/news (and probably more pestering questions!) and additional photos.

Thanks for all your help and sharing your amazing knowledge!!

[DavidLee]

The plugs Wolf is referring to would be the beau-plugs. Black with 18 to 24 pins. Beau plugs complete circuits between remote mechanisms. Occasionally beau-plug pins will get pushed out, loosing continuity.

At this point tracing the circuit from the B switch to the reset coil should be done.
Thus eliminating an open circuit.
There’s a slim chance that the reset mechanism is out of adjustment or missing a spring.
The step up unit can be manually stepped up for observation/testing.

[wolftalk]

"plugs" is pretty much any of them ... beau plugs like david mentioned on the back of the reel mech or molex plugs like the 1090's use for connecting the payout counter to the cabinet.

beau plug pins are more prone to crud and oxidation since they are disconnected and exposed to air more frequently. On the bright side, cleaning the plug pins is pretty easy using a wire wheel on a dremel or any kind of synthetic steel wool, brush, etc.  Don't bother trying to clean the sockets unless there's obvious corrosion in them.

if a beau plug pin does get pushed back in the housing, what to do about it depends on the type of beau plug.  They used at least three different styles over the years that retained the pins differently.  If you can't fix it, you either move the wires to an unused pin (if available), replace the plug or if desperate add a wire with your own disconnect temporarily until you fix it right.

molex plugs (and the amphenol ones used to connect the door circuits) are rarely disconnected so they typically don't cause issues unless there's some overheating which will be obvious by the blackening of the plastic shell.  While cleaning/deoxit may help, usually molex/amp plug issues are fixed by repinning the connection which requires the pins, a crimper and ideally the tools that make pin removal a lot easier ... just don't buy the molex tools as they are much too expensive relative to other things that work well enough.

poor connections in plugs are easiest to find with a voltmeter.  The trick is you want current to be flowing in a circuit when measuring the voltage because poor connections will show up as voltage drops.

in this case, of you attach meter probes to the reset coil lugs on a stepped up payout counter and push the timer link bar to close B-3, the circuit should be complete and you'd measure a little over 50VAC on the coil ... and the coil should power and pull in the plunger.  'course, if that happens you wouldn't need to measure the voltage and the "open-at-zero" switch will open when the wipers reset and disconnect the coil, so if you want the voltage value you'd need to jumper the open-at-zero switch closed or prevent the wipers from spinning back to reset to be able to get a voltage reading.

the alternative to a meter is use a jumper wire to bypass parts of the circuit.  By moving the jumper around you will home in on which switch or wire/plug connection is making things work.

[DavidLee]

Good advice Wolf.

I usually check continuity using the diode/beep setting on my meter.
Or a test light, either way with the power off.

Also, manually closing the B switch to check it for continuity is another option.
Rather than mechanically pushing the J bar.

A machine that is operating correctly and after a large jackpot has just paid out.
You can actually hear the step up unit zip back a second or two after the handle is pulled.
Activated by the sliding bar under the B switch.

[Jim]

when I encounter a payout problem on the counter unit, it's usually the rubber dampener that causes the issue, the rubber becomes sticky and prevents that cam from dropping down. end up making one out of a larger pencil eraser , fashion and shape to size. didn't see if that was ever mentioned in all the discussion. thought I would mention it!

Jim   

[wolftalk]

just to unclarify and obfuscate a bit ... :-)

wrt continuity/buzzer mode, just be aware of the limitations.  It's great for finding open circuits, but if you get a buzz it doesn't necessarily mean the circuit is good.

there are two main issues:

1] a typical tester/meter will buzz for around 40 ohms or less resistance.  There's a lot of roundabout circuit paths thru the transformer and coils that have less resistance than that, so ideally look at the resistance reading to make sure it's almost zero ohms if you are testing for a closed circuit path. 

if not too big a pita, make sure the circuit path you want to check is the only possible path between your two probe points by disconnecting units, sticking paper between contacts, etc.

2] a continuity tester injects a small current that may work fine.  When a large current is needed to do something like power a solenoid, the circuit no longer works because a poor connection limits current.

in the end tho, continuity/buzzer will find a lot of problems and has the advantage that you must do it with power off, so you can be pretty careless about what you poke, touch, or short together.

Jim in post #13 is talking about the "stop lever" ... the white triangle bit in the below pic.  The nub on the end of the spiral cam (brown in this case) slams into the stop lever, and the stop lever tips up against the black rubber stop bumper (below the two black screws).

if the rubber is gooey, the stop lever can stick to it and even though the spiral cam has rotated counter-clockwise during payout, the stuck stop lever hasn't dropped and is holding the zero switch open so the reset coil won't fire on the next spin.

note in this pic there's two switches operated by the stop lever ... most games just have one switch, and it should close when the payout counter steps up once.  It's job is to disconnect the reset coil so it doesn't fire if the payout counter is already reset.

the triangular stop lever and eraser-style bumper was a later design.  The earlier slots had a metal bar with peg to lift the zero switch and an eccentric rubber disc for the stop (disc with an off-center hole you loosened and spun to adjust how high the bar moves and therefore the reset position of the wipers).

[GottliebBob]

Guys,

Thanks for the replies and all the great advice and info.....so very much appreciated.

I had seen mention of beau plugs in other posts and assumed it was a different name for a Molex plug.  When I was set straight on that I had an Ah Ha moment and it is good to know the difference.  Since this is my first Bally elecro-mechanical to work on (I have done many purely mechanical slots) I had never seen a beau plug until I pulled the hopper and the reel mech out of this game.

I had been made aware of the "gummy stop" possibility early in this thread but had been so focused on the two switches in the circuit to reset the Payout Counter (B-3 and the Open At Zero switch) that I had forgotten about it.  I have not checked for that and definitely need to.

Wolf....when you say "if the rubber is gooey, the stop lever can stick to it and even though the spiral cam has rotated counter-clockwise during payout, the stuck stop lever hasn't dropped and is holding the zero switch open so the reset coil won't fire on the next spin"  is the zero switch you are referring to the Open At Zero switch on top of the Payout Counter?  This is referred to in the manual as the Reset pawl switch.  This is what I have been focused on as one of the two switches in the circuit to reset the Payout Counter.  Have I been looking at the wrong switch?

When working on pinballs I frequently use the the method you describe of using a jumper to move through the circuit to find the fault point.  But in a pinball I usually have relative easy access to everything.  I am perplexed at how I can get to switches in this 1090-1 that are so buried to use that technique while the machine is all together.  What am I missing here?

Again gentlemen, thanks so much for all your help.  I get the feeling that this is a pretty easy problem to fix and that my lack of familiarity with Bally elctro-mechanicals is causing me to stumble around.  But I am also confident that with your guidance I can get there.

[wolftalk]

Wolf....when you say "if the rubber is gooey, the stop lever can stick to it and even though the spiral cam has rotated counter-clockwise during payout, the stuck stop lever hasn't dropped and is holding the zero switch open so the reset coil won't fire on the next spin"  is the zero switch you are referring to the Open At Zero switch on top of the Payout Counter?  This is referred to in the manual as the Reset pawl switch.  This is what I have been focused on as one of the two switches in the circuit to reset the Payout Counter.  Have I been looking at the wrong switch?

yup, looking at wrong switch :-)

the reset pawl switch stack is lifted and held lifted when the pawls are latched above the ratchet teeth so the ratcvhet can spin to it's reset position.  The pawls and therefore the stack flop down onto the ratchet teeth on the first step up of the unit when a payout starts.

the typical use of the reset pawl switch is turning on the "winner paid" light when the pawls are down on the teeth.  When the payout counter is reset and the pawls are latched up, the light is off.  Usually the pawl switch for the winner paid light has green/black (48-1) and orange/red (71-2) wires on it.

the "payout counter open at 0" switch is the one in front of the spiral cam and usually has yellow (30) and oranger/black (78-1) wires.  That one disconnects the circuit to the payout counter reset coil and in the case of the 1090 the win meter reset coil so they don't power if there wasn't a payout.

When working on pinballs I frequently use the the method you describe of using a jumper to move through the circuit to find the fault point.  But in a pinball I usually have relative easy access to everything.  I am perplexed at how I can get to switches in this 1090-1 that are so buried to use that technique while the machine is all together.  What am I missing here?

Again gentlemen, thanks so much for all your help.  I get the feeling that this is a pretty easy problem to fix and that my lack of familiarity with Bally elctro-mechanicals is causing me to stumble around.  But I am also confident that with your guidance I can get there.

there are two approaches.  The one most people are forced to use is yank out a unit like the hopper or reels, attach the jumper and shove the thing back in so you can test.

if you work on a lot of machines, the second approach is to get some beau plugs and lots of wire and make extension cables so you can connect units on the bench to the plugs in the cabinet. 

I did make some extension cables once when I was working on a complex game that I didn't have paperwork for, but it's probably not worth the effort since a couple guesses where to attach jumpers is usually enough to narrow things down.

a kinda hybrid approach is to jumper wire 70 from something convenient in the cabinet to wire 70 on something you pulled out, then use a jumper from wire 30 to power circuits that are on the same unit.  e.g.:

   https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/50V_Jumper_Testing.mp4

the one gotcha is if the plug connections are the problem, then repeatedly removing and installing pieces can scrub the plugs clean enough for the problem to go away ... for a while.  I usually just look at the plugs and if they appear oxidized or cruddy, I just clean them up with a wire wheel since it takes less than a minute (not counting the time spent pulling the wire strands out of your skin after they fling off and stick in ya).

people who've worked on EM pinballs won't have much trouble finding electrical issues with the the EM slots once they get a few nomenclature things nailed down and figure out the coin relay and handle release relay are mechanically reset during the wind up and kick to spin the reels.

[GottliebBob]

Wolf,

Ok....Texas Pinball Festival is over and I am back home....had a great show.

Thanks for the prompt reply and all the excellent advice.

Doh!!  I cleaned the wrong switch.....how embarrassing!  Well, I guess the good news is that it still may be just a switch issue and i won't have to deal with any beau plug issues.

My neighbor is out for a week so as soon as she returns I will take another whack at it.  And I will get you some additional photos.

I appreciate all you guys....this is a great site.

[GottliebBob]

Wolf,

First of all, I sent more pics to cdyn.  Let me know if they came through alright.

Ok....my neighbor is back from her trip and I went over there today for another shot at fixing her slot.

Jumpered 50 volts to the Payout Counter reset coil and it is good.

Truly amazing.....when you clean the proper switch it will fix things!  It was the open at zero switch on the Payout Counter as you and several others suspected.  Cleaned that sucker and the Payout Counter is now resetting after a payout.

Having said that, I also wiggled around the Molex plugs that connect the Counter to the machine.....so maybe??

One thing that caught me off guard was that the wire that comes off the open at zero switch and sends 50 volts to the Payout Counter reset coil doesn't go directly to the coil.  It appears to meander off to one of the Molex plugs and comes back to the coil on a different colored wire?  That seems really odd to me.   

Thanks to all for your help.  Slot is working great! 

[DavidLee]

Possibly the payout counter win meter.
What color are the wires in question?