The Lucky board - CRT inverter board by Lucky Dog - TECH discussion here.

[LuckyDog]

Admin note:
This is the continuation of the subject from an older post here:
/nlg/index.php?topic=45808.0
I felt member Lucky Dog needed his own thread! There was just too much great information here. 
PREORDER THREAD IS HERE -  /nlg/index.php?topic=48340 - Preorder discussion only please!

So, THIS following thread is for technical information.

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I know I'm way late to this party...Been a long time coming, but after several years of efforts, and help from this forum, I'm happy to say I've had some good success developing a circuit board for upgrading CRT's to LCD monitors!

It solves both the inverted video and sync problem with IGT & other machines, in a neat, small package.

Have built several breadboards, layed out a PWB, and just ordered the first batch.  Should have finished boards in about 3 weeks!!

[jay]

Looking forward to this....

[Sunrise Side]

Very Interested!!!

[LuckyDog]

Update:
Looks like we have working boards!!   Boards pictured are the initial prototype boards, final boards are slightly different.
The first batch of boards arrived, got them assembled, and tested with several machines: IGT PE+ & F1, Bally V2000 and an older CEI. 

Two versions of boards:
Boards for the IGT machines combine the syncs and invert the Video.
Boards for the others are basically just a sync combiner.

Inputs: Input connector and signals are the same as the input on a Ceronix 1492 circuit board.
Outputs: Output to a GBS-8200 via VGA connector or 8-pin inline that matches the 8200.
The 2" x 2 1/2" board can piggy-back onto a GBS-8200 board and share a +5V 3A Wall Wart.

 

I will offer a complete kit of this board, 8200, wall wart and all wiring.

I've put in more hours and $$ than I care to admit to get this working.  Sounds so simple; but finding the RIGHT combination of parts has been quite a challenge.  Ended up using op amps; I'm sure there are ways to use transistors, but that expertise escapes me.

[jay]

I looked at your pics...... very clean, very excited.

Just so I am clear.....Unplug the Ceronix, plug in your board, plug VGA compatiable LCD into board and bobs your uncle ?

I see a white unpopulated plug.... and I see a populated 2 wire plug ... is that power ? if so where is it stolen from and where do we get the matching molex plug for it ?

One other stupid question Where do I get a 14" ? square LCD monitor. Everything looks like 24" 16:9 these days.

[LuckyDog]

Thanks Jay, sorry, I didn't explain very well.  Tried to make a board that would be flexible in its capabilities, but is harder to explain! (not my strong suit either)

There are several pieces to the full setup; see photo "Pieces Required"
1) Input Harness
2) "Lucky" Board (for lack of what to call it)
3)  8-Pin JST Cable connecting to 8200
4) GBS-8200 Video Converter
5) +5V 3A Wall wart
6) VGA cable connecting 8200 to monitor
7) 14" or 15" Square or 4:3 Monitor from Goodwill !!

1)
The board's input wiring harness is unique to the machine it is used in.
The input connector is the same as a Ceronix 1492 Circuit board input. (not chassis input).
The wiring harness could be removed from a dead 1492 monitor chassis, or ordered from some of the vendors here. (that's where I got mine).  I can build new ones if needed for some machines.

2) There are 2 configurations of the board, both have a jumper to change sync polarity.
     "Lucky Video" -Inverts the video signals and combines the Sync signals.
     "Lucky Sync"  - Connects video direct from input to output and combines the Sync signals.
 
3) The output of either board connects via VGA cable to a GBS-8200. There is an 8-pin JST style connector.  that could be used instead, although a VGA cable is cheaper.  I can provide an 8-pin pigtail or a complete cable if needed.

4) I anticipate this board to be piggy-backed onto a 8200 Converter, where it gets power from a header plugged into the 8200.  If mounted elsewhere, power would be connected via the 2-pin connector.  I will include a 2-pin power connector with pigtail.

5) The "Lucky" board works with +5V only.  The 8200 is recommended to operate at 5V, but might accept higher voltages.  Power can't be shared if the 8200 is connected to more than +5V.

6) 8200 Video output via VGA cable to LCD monitor.

7)  LCD Monitor.... Local thrift stores sometimes have them.  Amazon still carried one or two last time I looked.  Last year they were around $75.  This year they are up to $125.

As this is an old thread, would it be appropriate to start a new post to share this availability?

[LuckyDog]

As an example of the unique input harness.
Here is a photo of two different video connectors I've seen on IGT upright machines.  I think the slant tops might even have others.
One on the left mates with an F1, PE, and PE+ earlier models. 
One on right is from later PE+ machines.

[cliffeby]

I'd be interested.  Some questions:
1.  The PE and PE+ view opening is a 11 x 8".  The cabinets can take a max of 14x10.5" +/-.  Is content positioning controlled by the monitor?
2.  If not, do all the GBS-8200 boards support the ability to horizontally/vertically position content?
3.  Are all GBS-8200 boards compatible with your inverter.  I see some have 5 and 12VDC power inputs.  Are both voltages compatible?
4.  Here's an Amazon listing.  Would it work?  JaiHo 12 Inch LCD Security CCTV Monitor, 800x600 4:3 Resolution Color TFT LCD Display Screen with VGA/
5.  Is there a preferred aspect ratio?

[Chris-socal]

Having done this on a machine that is NOT inverted color it makes more sense to split the two processes.

If a game does not have inverted video you would simply use the 8200 board. It takes simple RGBGHV from arcade and slots and turns it into modern output; Composit, VGA (the blue cable with 9 pins), etc.

Now, to address the problem of inverted colors….the device Luckydog has created inverts the invert! It then sends the corrected signal to the 8200 which does what it has always done.

The monitor you are looking for to replace a CRT 13” is usually an old PC 15” LCD monitor. You will have to get creative on mounting it but they are usually light enough to mount directly onto the door.

Here is my setup on a 1983 machine. Mine has two 1” brackets on the bottom and velcro on the top. The velcro on top was intended to be temporary but it hasn’t ever budged or shown interest in moving in 8 years so it stays!

As I always say, do not expect the same depth or sharpness that comes from a CRT. The LCD picture is good but it has taken them 25 years to get tube clarity from alternative monitors and the only reason they were able to achieve it was by using pixels that are so small your eye cannot see the edges anymore. They did NOT use that tech on home use 15” monitors. They were all widescreen by the time LCD images got that good.

This process is best suited for instances where a CRT has died and it is not financially feasible to get a replacement.

Chris

[Chris-socal]

Luckydog, I am curious, if you feed the Lucky board a standard input will it invert it?

The reason I ask is because there are times it would be nice to put a Ceronix monitor into a non-inverted machine. Will this convert a non-inverted color into inverted?

Chris

[jay]

Great - questions

I typed GBS-8200 into Amazon (Canada) and got boards from $34 to $115 showing up. Most looked the same but the descriptions also varied and there were some voltage differences.

I have lots of VGA cables around (despite the Mrs's protests that I hoard too much old crap).

I am still back to the required harness. If I unplug my CRT i think I would need a cable to go from the Molex I just disconnected over to the Lucky-Board.
I am also thinking that I would need the jumber between the two.

Also regarding that jumper between Lucky and the GBS-8200, per Cliffebys Query - some of the 8200's I saw ran 12v so is that 2 pin on the 8200 pinned to 5v or is it simply a tap off of the DC barrel connector ??  It it is just a tap and subsequently 12v power - will it blow up the Lucky.... ?

You floated a cost of $49 for the lucky - but the ideal "package" would be something that is more plug and play.
Ie Unplug the CRT - Plug into a harness shipped with the lucky - shipped with the right GBS-8200 and connecting cable(s) wall wart power supply etc.... this way I would just supply the VGA cable and monitor. It would even be good if you put this on a plastic or wood board with offsets so I can just put it in the back of the PE plus and not worry about putting it on a metal monitor tray and shorting things out. Of course I understand this would no longer be just $49.....

[Chris-socal]

Not really because someone might only want to invert the signal, they may not want to convert to modern VGA. Remember, two completely separate functions are taking place.

Yes, you would need to make a connector that goes from your monitor connector in the cabinet (minus the 120v ac) to the Lucky board. Since they are all different thats up to the end user. You could post your connector here and someone could identify it.

My experience is that there is one “official “ 8200 and it’s expensive. There are dozens that are generic but work just fine. Just look for good feedback. I believe the 8200 can run on 5v to 12v. Mine is running on 6v. The Same line would work as long as the walwart has sufficient power to run both.

Maybe he could provide a link for one that is known good.

Chris

[LuckyDog]

Great Questions! 

I'd be interested.  Some questions:
1.  The PE and PE+ view opening is a 11 x 8".  The cabinets can take a max of 14x10.5" +/-.  Is content positioning controlled by the monitor? 
2.  If not, do all the GBS-8200 boards support the ability to horizontally/vertically position content?
3.  Are all GBS-8200 boards compatible with your inverter.  I see some have 5 and 12VDC power inputs.  Are both voltages compatible?
4.  Here's an Amazon listing.  Would it work?  JaiHo 12 Inch LCD Security CCTV Monitor, 800x600 4:3 Resolution Color TFT LCD Display Screen with VGA/
5.  Is there a preferred aspect ratio?

1) Depends on the specific monitor... some allow more than others
2) GBS-8200 looks to be a generic board with various versions.  I  don't know what the differences are between them.  The ones I've used so far are stamped V4.0 & V5.2 with dates of 2023 & 2025 which do have some positioning & size adjustments.
3) I believe any GBS-8200 should work with a Lucky board, ONLY IF it is powered by +5V.  The Lucky board is NOT compatible with more than +5V.
4) Yes,  https://www.amazon.com/Inch-Security-Monitor-800X600-Built/dp/B07DCB62C1?th=1   looks to be a good choice.
5) 640 x 480 is the most common for older pokers.  The Aspect Ratio does vary by the machine; ie... Please correct me if wrong, but seem to recall  PE+ is 640 x 480 ; Bally V2000 is 640 x 400.  The 8200 has a menu selection for aspect ratio. 

[LuckyDog]

Luckydog, I am curious, if you feed the Lucky board a standard input will it invert it?

The reason I ask is because there are times it would be nice to put a Ceronix monitor into a non-inverted machine. Will this convert a non-inverted color into inverted?

Chris

Hey Chris, 
Thanks for sharing your mounting, looks very neat & clean. 

Yes, the Lucky board would change the video polarity letting you put a Ceronix in a non-inverted system.

Is that a CEI cabinet??

So you have had good results using the 8200 with seperate V & H sync input signals? 
Glad to hear, I can forget about doing a "Lucky Sync" board then.

I agree with your view on screen sharpness.  Side by side an LCD can't match a good CRT's performance.  With older weak and burnt-in CRTs there comes a point when LCD's do catch up.

Warning: Where I have bought my 8200's  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078ZDTLBJ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title
I have had NO LUCK with wiring the Sync signals direct to these boards, but if I use a sync combiner they have worked good.  Thought they all worked this way, but I've since heard otherwise.

[LuckyDog]

Great - questions

I am still back to the required harness. If I unplug my CRT i think I would need a cable to go from the Molex I just disconnected over to the Lucky-Board.
I am also thinking that I would need the jumper between the two.

Also regarding that jumper between Lucky and the GBS-8200, per Cliffebys Query - some of the 8200's I saw ran 12v so is that 2 pin on the 8200 pinned to 5v or is it simply a tap off of the DC barrel connector ??  It it is just a tap and subsequently 12v power - will it blow up the Lucky.... ?

You floated a cost of $49 for the lucky - but the ideal "package" would be something that is more plug and play.
Ie Unplug the CRT - Plug into a harness shipped with the lucky - shipped with the right GBS-8200 and connecting cable(s) wall wart power supply etc.... this way I would just supply the VGA cable and monitor. It would even be good if you put this on a plastic or wood board with offsets so I can just put it in the back of the PE plus and not worry about putting it on a metal monitor tray and shorting things out. Of course I understand this would no longer be just $49.....

Hi Jay,
Yes very good questions.

Yes, the input harness would be unique to each machine. There is one six wire harness needed between the Lucky board and the Molex in the cabinet. That harness includes the 3 RGB video lines, V sync, H sync and Gnd.

On the 8200 boards I've seen, the 2-pin connector is wired directly to the power input jack.

YES, The Lucky board will self destruct if over +5.5V MAX.  Most literature I've read on the 8200 recommend a +5V 2A wall wart. Some users report they had to go with a 3A to get reliable operation.  While many 8200's allow between 5 - 12V; I don't think there is any benefit of using anything higher than 5V.

To me, it's looking more and more like the "ideal package" path may be the best way to approach this. Sell a complete kit with everything needed including input harness (less LCD).  I would need the customer to provide info on what "Molex" connector they have when ordering. 
This approach would also make things much better overall. 
- Lucky would always be piggy-backed, eliminating the 2-pin connector & 2-wire cable
- Shipping unit with +5V wall wart removes most risk of wrong voltage
- Could include mounting hardware to insulate board from metal cabinet, now knowing what the mechanical configuration is
- Reduces wiring complexity
- allows me to test the Lucky bd WITH the 8200 and dial-in the 8200 settings (which sometimes can be tricky)
- Less technical detail for customer to deal with

[Chris-socal]

I had no issues with H and V sync separately. The board had separate inputs, in fact I believe that connector came with my board. I just happened to find the matching molex at our local electronics store…pre-wired! I certainly didn’t have a crimper for that type of connection tor back then.

That sure is a CEI cabinet, its my King Derby horse race machine.

Chris

[LuckyDog]

I had no issues with H and V sync separately. The board had separate inputs, in fact I believe that connector came with my board. I just happened to find the matching molex at our local electronics store…pre-wired! I certainly didn’t have a crimper for that type of connection tor back then.

Thanks, glad to hear that worked for you!

I have three 8200 boards; none would work with connecting the sync signals directly to the separate inputs; I had to use a sync combiner ckt. That's why I did the "Lucky Sync" option.  Thought they all worked that way.

Went back and tried again today with all three boards on a Bally and CEI system; still only work if I use a sync combiner ckt.  One board is new this week.

From you photo, your board looks to be made by the same folks as mine; although the dates on mine are 2023 & 2025 instead of 2009. 

If you have a chance, I'd really like to know what your Geometry settings are.  I've nearly worn the buttons out trying various combinations..  Thanks

[Chris-socal]

Oh, setting the geometry is a terror, I remember spending an hour trying all options….that is another unspoken truth about converting to LCD, the image spread is not the same on modern monitors. On a CRT you have a V-Size and V-Position knob, same for Horizontal. You don’t get that on the 8200, and most LCD monitors don’t have a truly variable set of controls. It seems like its just going to fit and then the screen suddenly jumps to be larger than the field of view.
That is why you will hear me say time and time again, games that were designed on a CRT monitor will always look better on a CRT. When they made the very first LCD monitors they didn’t really try to match CRT resolution exactly.
My entire image does not really fit correctly on the screen, you have to truncate the V-Size together black line at top/bottom. Then use the monitor adjustment to expand the image to fit as much as you can.

As for separate H/V sync, it might be your LCD expects combined. Note my LCD is from 2003 or something like that. Also try swapping the H and V wires.

Chris

[Big D]

Lucky Dog,

I just came across this thread, if you have any more of the Lucky Boards available, Can you put me down for two of them.

They look great!!!

Thanks
Dennis

[LuckyDog]

Guys, thank you VERY MUCH for your great questions and feedback.  It is much appreciated.






New thread here for PREORDERS by Lucky Dog
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