Bally EM ID & Step-up issue

[Phan000]

Not sure what model machine this is.

It’s fairly clean inside.  Plays and pays correctly with one coin.

The top unit isn’t stepping up.  It accepts multiple coins,  but does not advance.

Additionally,  the hopper sounds like it’s struggling a bit when paying off.  Hopper gears are well lubed.  Is there another place where gunk could slow it down?

[wolftalk]

5 coin multiplier in that style cabinet is a model 809.  Which specific 809 can be narrowed down if ya find the code numbers on the slotted metal index discs on the reels.  Pretty much any 809 schematic will apply for the main game operation.  Specific wiring in the reels and stuff like when the bell rings can be different between 809 versions.

they made 809's for years, but most will have the old style hopper with the motor to the side of the bowl/pinwheel.  The main gunkage point in that style hopper is under the bottom edge of the pinwheel, and the only good way to deal with it is remove the pinwheel and clean the bowl and pinwheel edge.

whether you remove the center nut and take the pinwheel off the shaft or remove the clip/washer from other end of the shaft and pull out the entire pinwheel/shaft as an assembly is up to you and other folks should probably comment ... sometimes the shaft won't easily pull out in the up direction if the area where the clip goes has flared out a bit.  I'm pretty sure you can pull the shaft out with the pinwheel tho.

In any case, you want to remove the shaft so you can clean it and the nyliner bushings. You can't avoid removing a bunch of stuff like the bowl, bowl support bracket,  coin knife and float ball/arm so you can get the pinwheel out.

if you have a new style hopper with the motor directly behind the pinwheel:

- make sure the bearings the pinwheel is riding on aren't adjusted really tightly against the pinwheel edge and binding the bearings.  The bearings should be lightly touching the pinwheel to support it.  iir, the top bearing is the adjustable one.

- verify the pinwheel is not scraping on the hopper scoop rim - if it's touching, there's an eccentric screw on the right side of the bowl rim that can be turned to shift the bowl around a bit.  There's a lock nut on the thing you have to loosen first, then turn the screw.

- the pinwheel on the new style hopper can also get gunked, so removal may be needed.  The motor can stay in, but pay attention to the peg sticking out of the motor shaft and how it goes between pinwheel/agitator mounting screws.  You still have to remove some bits and back off the bearing(s) to get the pinwheel out.

---

odds unit step-up is kinda a two step process of the coin switch powering the odds relay when the coin switch goes down, then the odds unit step-up coil fires when the coin switch goes back up. 

the odds relay needs to keep itself powered until the odds unit step-up solenoid powers.  First check when pushing down the coin switch on the 2nd+ coin is do you hear the odds relay power?  If yes, do you hear it unpower when you let the coin switch back up?

[Phan000]

The odds unit does not power up or make an audible click with multiple coins.

I took the hopper out and began to clean.  When I replaced it, it is now runaway on all pays.

When I manually the coin counter up,  it snaps back as expected.  Thinking I must have hit one of the switch stacks.

[DavidLee]

Try cleaning the step up disc rivets and related contacts on the unit.

Regarding the runaway hopper. Inspect the coin pivot arm and contacts.
and the manual step up linkage to the payout step unit.

[Phan000]

The counting problem was due to the coin counter arm not making good contact with the switches.

Machine was paying and stopping correctly,  but still had a nasty struggling noise when doing so.

I removed the pinwheel & cleaned & re-lubed all of the cogs.

But after re-assembly,  it’s not paying at all. 

I tried re-adjusting most of the switches and the zero stop.

Not really sure what caused it,  but has to be hopper as that was the only change made.

[DavidLee]

When a unit is working then stops working after lubrication maintenance.
I wouldn’t suspect contacts to be out of adjustment.
Unless the unit accidentally came in contact with another surface.
It sounds like a loss of continuity.
Possibly the beau-plug, or pivot arm contacts, broken wire.

Is the hopper working properly now?

[Phan000]

Not sure if hopper is working.  It spins well.

I disassembled the plastic coin counter unit to clean the white ratchet.  May have bent something in the process.

[wolftalk]

the stuff in the payout circuit on the hopper is:
- connection from plug to the appropriate numbered pay trace.  e.g. the 2 trace for a single cherry win
- the grey/yellow wire from the F trace on the payout counter disc to the payout relay coil.  Payout relay is on the back of the hopper.

when a win is created via the reel wipers, the corresponding pay trace is energized and the payout relay powers.  A couple redundant switches on the payout relay turn on the hopper motor.  Coins eject, the payout counter steps up, and when the wipers step off the end of the energized pay trace the payout relay unpowers.

if the problem is on the hopper itself, there's not much that go wrong.  The wiper connection to the pay trace is pretty much it if the payout relay coil is good.

what ya want to know is whether the payout relay is powering.  If not, the wiper connection is no good or the circuit back through the reels isn't working.

if you can clip a meter probe/jumper wire onto the 2 trace on the payout counter and have it stay there when you put the hopper back in, you could measure the voltage on the trace when you have a cherry win (other probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil).  You should get a little over 50VAC.  You could also touch the end of the jumper to the yellow 30 wire on the coin switch and the payout relay should power.

if you want to do a quick sanity check, you can yank the hopper and in ohms mode stick one meter probe on the 2 trace and the other probe on the F trace and verify you have almost zero ohms.  This test isn't completely conclusive, but if you get infinite ("OL" on some meters = "over limit" = infinite), then the wipers aren't making contact to the 2 trace.

If you adjusted the zero stop bumper position, you may need to tweak it to get the wipers onto the 2 trace.  If you took the contact plate off the unit, it can be twisted a little on the unit frame to align the wipers onto the traces at reset.  You have to remove the spiral cam and loosen the screws fasstening the contact plate to the frame, then rotate the plate a little.

I don't see a zero switch on your machine ... it's normally on the bracket poking over the spiral cam and is opened by the zero stop white wedge piece.  It's not your problem tho ... if it's removed and the wires shorted the payout counter reset coil will fire every spin even if the counter is already reset.  If it's not there and the wires are disconnected the payout counter won't reset.

wrt the odds unit, if the odds relay (on the board in the top comparment) isn't powering when you push down the coin switch the second time (first time trips the coin relay and resets the odds unit), then it's one of:
- handle release relay switch is not working.  blue/yellow 23-1 wire on long/moving blade not connecting to the brown/red 61-1 wire when the handle release relay is tripped.
- plug connections cruddy
- odds relay coil kaput.

you can attach voltmeter probes to the wires on the odds relay coil (brown/red 61-1 andorange 70) and see if you get 50VAC when holding down the coin switch after coining the came once.

note there's an odds unit, odds relay and odds reset relay ... three different things with similar names.   Typically the odds relay is on a bracket on the top board

[Phan000]

if you can clip a meter probe/jumper wire onto the 2 trace on the payout counter and have it stay there when you put the hopper back in, you could measure the voltage on the trace when you have a cherry win (other probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil).  You should get a little over 50VAC.  You could also touch the end of the jumper to the yellow 30 wire on the coin switch and the payout relay should power.

I tried this. Multimeter showed 52vac until switch was triggered, then nothing.  With the jumper on coin switch, the other end goes to the 2 trace?

Safety timer eventually turns off the machine when left idle after a non-paying win.

In jostling the hopper a thousand times,  it did attempt to pay once.  Still made a bad noise.  Cannot make it happen consistently though.


I had 0 ohms connecting the 2 to the F trace.

[Phan000]

I made some progress, sort of.

There was a loose white/blue wire near the payout relay.  It was broken clean,  but don’t see the other end. I temporarily attached to other white/blue on the payout relay switch, and it pays.

It’s not resetting after a win, and many coins are getting knocked back into the hopper by the rejector.
The knife is pretty flush with the quarter groove.

The hopper is also still making noise, though the pinwheel spins freely.  The noise does not sound like a grinding noise, more like an angry vibrating noise as if I hit the metal while playing the game “Operation”.

The motor wiring is not great, photos attached.  I do have a spare motor & can try that if it makes sense.

[wolftalk]

the white/blue wire is probably a segment of wire 52-2.

52-2 connects together the redundant payout relay switches, the ratchet cam switch, delay relay switches, the hopper motor and the override solenoid coil.

so five things connected by the same wire, which means three of them will have a double wire attached to each of them.

generally, if you have a broken off wire and it's the right length to almost perfectly reach the same color wire, it's a good bet it's supposed to attach to that same color wire. 

however, you can blow stuff up if you just connect same color wires together, so it's always best to look at the schematic (or a schematic for the same model or if desperate ANY model) and try to identify what wire you actually have and where that wire should be going.

the worst thing ya can do is connect 120V into the 50V or 6V circuits and watch a bunch of coils or lamps act like fuses.

wrt the hopper noise, I'd probably yank the hopper out and connect 120V directly onto the hopper motor.  The override solenoid will also power.  Then ya can look and see where the noise is coming from.

if you don't have a power cord with alligator clips on the wires but have jumper wires, cut the power cord off something you never use (vacuum cleaner, the 3/8" chuck drill from 1962, etc.) and either solder the wires to the motor lugs or use jumpers.

a buzz could be any of the relays or override solenoid, so the motor and override solenoid are quiet, the next step is prevent the delay relay from powering, and unfortunately the easiest way to do that is unsolder the grey wire from the ratchet cam switch on the back side of the payout counter unit (microswitch with its actuating arm riding on a white nylon cam).

you can also stick paper between the contacts on the delay relay to prevent the safety motor in the back of the cabinet by the transformer from turning on.  You don't want the solid green (40) wire connecting to anything, so you fold paper and put it around the two blades that 40 connect to so no connection whether the delay relay is powered or not.

if you had more of a scraping noise when the pinwheel is turning, the usual problem is the coin knife tip is touching the pinwheel rim that the coins sit on.  You want the knife slightly above the rim so no noise happens.

[Phan000]

The buzz is coming from this (coin rejector?).

It opens, but still makes a racket.  I took the spring off temporarily.


Machine is paying correctly with one coin.  Still have to address the top unit issue as it won’t step up.

[wolftalk]

that is the override solenoid.

if the ears on the T-shaped plunger aren't evenly contacting the laminated metal plates of the stator, you may get a buzz.  Both ears are supposed to hit the stator at about the same time.

if the spring is wrong (too much force), you will get a buzz as the plunger gets slightly pulled out and slams back in as the AC voltage crossed through zero 120 times/second

it's also possible the linkage is gummed up and pulling the solenoid plunger sideways.   The link plate between the plunger and coin kicker arm needs to pivot freely on both ends.

if you have another game, borrow/compare the spring. 

if the assembly doesn't move easily, cleaning time.

[Phan000]

I tried a known working spring on the override solenoid, no change.  Also tried replacing it, still no better.  For now it is disconnected.  Will get back to it.  Hoppper works great with it unpowered. 

I also moved the numbered wheels in the odds unit.  Machine steps up and resets.  But it is still not behaving-  after a spin,  the handle reset opens.  Has erratic no pay, partial pay.  On one coin sometimes it pays correctly.

[Phan000]

The machine paid properly with 1 coin, before doing anything to the top
Unit.

Since I spun one of the white, numbered tumblers,  it is stepping up, but payouts are erratic, sometimes zero.

What should I look at in the top unit to address this?

[wolftalk]

payout should always happen until the payout counter steps off the active pay trace.  The payout counter itself doesn't care how many coins were played on the spin.

the four things that look like pinball machine score reels are the X2-X5 units.  The odds unit wipers pick which one (or none if one coin played) is used to step the payout counter.

play 2 coins and the X2 unit is used for payout and should be the only one moving unless you manually move one of the others from its happy place.

e.g. when the odds unit is stepped up once (wo coins played), the X2 unit is selected.  Pulses from the coin out switches on the hopper step the X2 unit, and every other step the payout counter is also stepped.  That effectively means the payout counter is stepped every other coin, so the payout amount is doubled from the one coin pay amounts.

X3 is similar, but the pulse is only sent to the payout counter every third coin.

since the X2 thru X5 units all connect at some steps to the 14-3 wire going to the payout counter, if you manually step those units and leave them in a spot that connects 14-3 to the units step-up coil, the unit will step even if one coin is played.  This shouldn't effect payout because it happens when the payout counter was stepping anyway.

for example, if you manually step the X2 unit, you have a 50-50 chance when playing one coin that the X2 unit will also step ... but it'll only do it once and it'll be at a good position.

if you manually step the X2 unit then play two coins, either you get the right pay or 1 coin short.

manually step the X3 unit and play 3 coins, you may get a correct pay, 1 coin or 2 coins short depending on where you left the X3 wipers.  After the short pay tho, the game has synced up and pays should be right in the future.

if you are getting flaky pays when 2+ coins are played, you have to clean the printed traces under the score reels.  The symptom will be the Xy unit is stepping nicely as coins are ejected, but the payout counter is not stepping at the appropriate even cadence.

occasionally the traces are worn thru or blown away.  Worst case is hunting for a replacement contact plate.  The X2 and X5 units are easy since they use the same 10 step trace pattern and ratchet that a pinball machine does.  The X3 abd X4 units need a 12 step trace pattern and ratchet.

probably best to look on youtube for a "bally score reels" video like this one:
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAReezmAe-s
 
he unscrewed the score reel from the camshaft which isn't technically necessary if you have octopus hands and spin the reel to the place the camshaft cam be pulled out while pulling in the solenoid plunger.  However, since ya really don't care what number (if any) is forward when the reel is at the zero position, it's simpler the first time to remove the reel to see what is going on.

no pay on a winner would imply the payout counter didn't reset.  When something is wrong with the odds unit wipers or X2-X5 units, the result is overpay or game shutdown.  Only the high pays go thru odds unit wipers and can result in no-pay.  Lower pays don't go thru the odds unit so they should always start paying even if there's an odds unit wiper or X2-X5 unit issue.

[Phan000]

Which trace should x2-x5 start on?  Which one is X2,  left facing machine?

[wolftalk]

if ya look at each X2-X5 unit's wiper board, you'll see which traces are soldered together.  The F trace and one of the soldered together set will have a game harness wire attached.

red/green wire 14-3 daisy chains to all the Xy units and is probably on the F trace on all of them.

on the X2 unit, red/yellow wire 13-2 is connected to the even or odd traces ... probably trace 0,2,4,6,8

X3 is yellow/brown wire 36-3, probably on traces 0,2,5,8,11
X4 is red wire 10-1, probably on 0,3,7
X5 is blue/orange 27-2, probably on 0,4,8

since pay stops when the payout unit wipers step off the end of the active pay trace and the wipers on an Xy unit need to connect the 14-3 wire to the other wire to make the payout counter step, I assume the wiper under the score reel will wind up one step after one of the positions above ... doesn't matter which one.

for example if the above wiring is right,
- after a 2X pay the reel wiper will be sitting on an odd numbered trace.
- for a 5x pay, it'll be sitting on trace 1,5 or 9.

you don't really need to worry about it.  If the unit is on the wrong step, you just get a short pay the first win, then it's synced itself up and pays will be correct going forward for that X unit.

if all the X2-X5 units are using the 0 trace as suggested above, then you can position the wiper on the 1 trace on all of them and the pays should be correct the first time.  I'd guess that's what the factory did, but have never looked to see if anything above is actually true (I'm practicing to become a politician :-))