922 zj one cherry payouts on line 4 and 5 (7 instead of 4)

[Thephoneman]

This has been driving me nuts.  Only thing I haven't done is rotate the payboard, and I'm confused on the theory of that fix.  So the problem is just when the one cherry is on line 4 and 5 (top and bottom of reel 1). If it lands in combination with other wins the pay is correct.  I've looked for the schematic and the closest I can find is for a 873. Hopper wiring appears to be original with no obvious defects. Tested from feed to 4 and it stays hot until it reaches 7. Any help and explanation of  circuit flow is appreciated.

[wolftalk]

got pictures of the pay glass, the payout counter disc and the reels when you get an overpay?

according to the docs, a 922-ZJ should have reel tape m-222-456, and that tape doesn't have its two cherries positioned so both can be on paylines at the same time.   i.e. having a reel 1 cherry on paylines lines 4 and 5 on the same spin shouldn't be possible.

when line 4 or 5 is enabled, so are lines 1-3 ... so a 2 cherry win on lines 4 or 5 is also a 1 cherry win on lines 2 or 3 and the reel wipers are energizing the 7 trace.  The 873-A is probably similar to the 922-ZJ, but need to see the trace pattern on the payout disc as there is some difference between the 873-A and a 922-ZJ and I don't have the w-923-389 diagram the 022-ZJ uses.

[Thephoneman]

Yeah I'm sorry about not being clear on that original post. When I get a cherry on line 4 or 5, is when it pays 7 instead of 4. The pay disc is m-645-253. So in my testing with the meter going from F to 4 it stays "hot" until it reaches 7. Here's a Pic of the pay disc at the bottom.  I'll give it a couple of spins and check out the upper unit and see if anything looks suspicious

[Thephoneman]

Here are the other 2 pics you requested wolftalk. Payline and hopper pay disc.

[DavidLee]

It’s possible for the machine to payout 7 with a winning combination of cherries on two paylines.
This is achieved with cherries on either the top or bottom of reel #1
Plus a cherry on the middle payline of reel #2.

[Thephoneman]

It’s possible for the machine to payout 7 with a winning combination of cherries on two paylines.
This is achieved with cherries on either the top or bottom of reel #1
Plus a cherry on the middle payline of reel #2.

Yes that is correct.  However the 7 is paying with just 1 cherry when i have one on the top or bottom of reel 1 (line 4 or 5). According to the schematic for a 873 (more or less the same setup) the 4 is fed to the 7 thru a jumper...so it may end up being 7 is what it's supposed to pay.  I've read thru the pictorial guide and it mentions the 4 to 7 feed but doesn't explicitly say (at least in common English lol) the proper payout.  If it's supposed to pay 7 then great,  if not then there needs to be a simple way to adjust it that I'm overlooking.

[wolftalk]

ya know how to manually reset the payout counter wipers by yanking out the hopper and pushing the reset coil plunger in, right?

if yes, set up and get your 7 pay, then turn off power and:

- pull the reel mech and slide paper under all the reel 2 wiper fingers.  You actually only care about the "4th row" ones connecting wire 75 to 43-1 assuming the reel wiper wiring is the same as the 873-A, but it's often easier to slide paper under everything.  Shove the reels back in

- pull the hopper and reset the payout counter and put the hopper back in

turn on and see if game still pays 7?  If yes, yank the reels again and see if the 75 wire is somehow shorted to the 43-1 wire.  Ya can poke an ohmeter on the rivets and look for zero ohms or poke the plug pins.  If using continuity tester, check the resistance if it buzzes.

alternatively, without putting paper in and your win set on the reels, stick ohmeter probes on wires 85-2 and 75 on the reel mech plugs.  You should get almost zero ohms.  The check wires 85-2 and 43-1.  You should get infinite ohms (note OL = over limit = infinite, not zero).  If you do get infinite, the problem is on the hopper or in the reel plug.

[Thephoneman]

ya know how to manually reset the payout counter wipers by yanking out the hopper and pushing the reset coil plunger in, right?

if yes, set up and get your 7 pay, then turn off power and:

- pull the reel mech and slide paper under all the reel 2 wiper fingers.  You actually only care about the "4th row" ones connecting wire 75 to 43-1 assuming the reel wiper wiring is the same as the 873-A, but it's often easier to slide paper under everything.  Shove the reels back in

- pull the hopper and reset the payout counter and put the hopper back in

turn on and see if game still pays 7?  If yes, yank the reels again and see if the 75 wire is somehow shorted to the 43-1 wire.  Ya can poke an ohmeter on the rivets and look for zero ohms or poke the plug pins.  If using continuity tester, check the resistance if it buzzes.

alternatively, without putting paper in and your win set on the reels, stick ohmeter probes on wires 85-2 and 75 on the reel mech plugs.  You should get almost zero ohms.  The check wires 85-2 and 43-1.  You should get infinite ohms (note OL = over limit = infinite, not zero).  If you do get infinite, the problem is on the hopper or in the reel plug.

I'm away from the machines for the night, but i will follow your suggestions and give you the results.  Thank you for the input and advice. Looks like I'm gonna owe you another box of your favorite beverage and another steak dinner.

[DavidLee]

Possibly some person got creative with the wiring, as in adding a permanent jumper.
Thus creating a 1 plus 2 cherry payout.

Using the paper insulator as Wolf mentioned should definitely narrow down the problem.

[Thephoneman]

Possibly some person got creative with the wiring, as in adding a permanent jumper.
Thus creating a 1 plus 2 cherry payout.

Using the paper insulator as Wolf mentioned should definitely narrow down the problem.

From looking at a similar schematic for a 873, that 4 feed is in line with the 7 feed via a jumper on the payboard.  I've done the paper trick earlier and it still paid 7, but i will get in there and try the tests wolftalk suggested.  I've thought about snipping that jumper,  but I'd like to figure out the "real issue" vs stopping that one and possibly creating another

[wolftalk]

From looking at a similar schematic for a 873, that 4 feed is in line with the 7 feed via a jumper on the payboard.

the likely thing is the payout disc board needs to be rotated a little because the wiper fingers are touching the short/right 7 trace after the payout counter has stepped 4 times.  After step 4, the wipers should be off the 4 trace but not on the short 7 trace.

tmi
----

the 4 trace and the short right 7 trace are connected to wire 75, which is energized on a 4 pay resulting from a cherry win on line 4 or 5.

the diagrams of the payout discs aren't really accurate enough to know exactly where the trace ends are, but the way it would have to work is when the wipers step off the 4 trace they do NOT step onto the short 7 trace.

there's two ways use traces to pay 7:
- the long 7 trace
- the 5 trace + the short 7 trace (wipers stepping off the 5 trace are then on the 7 trace so the pay keeps going two more coins).

why the pay disc and all the reel wiper wiring is complicated is messy to describe, but essentially the reel tape symbols are carefully chosen so that rather than 22 individual symbols appearing on a payline, there's 10 possible 3-symbol patterns that can appear on the top, center and bottom lines on each reel.

e.g. a cherry on reel tape 1 always has a plum on either side, so one pattern is PL-CH-PL.  Of the 22 ways the reel can index, 3 of them are PL-CH-PL.

different patterns then position the reel wipers at the spot the schem suggests (dot at left end of the box is position 10, right end position 1).

all this is needed because the wins have to be calculated depending on the number of lines enabled and you get paid the total.  Something like a line 4/5 2 cherry win with the second cherry in the middle vs on one of lines 2 or 3 may position the wipers differently because there's other non-cherry wins possible.

for example:
- a cherry on reel 1 line 3 could also have an orange win on line 2
- a cherry on reel 1 line 2 cannot have an orange win on other lines

[Thephoneman]

From looking at a similar schematic for a 873, that 4 feed is in line with the 7 feed via a jumper on the payboard.

the likely thing is the payout disc board needs to be rotated a little because the wiper fingers are touching the short/right 7 trace after the payout counter has stepped 4 times.  After step 4, the wipers should be off the 4 trace but not on the short 7 trace.

tmi
----

the 4 trace and the short right 7 trace are connected to wire 75, which is energized on a 4 pay resulting from a cherry win on line 4 or 5.

the diagrams of the payout discs aren't really accurate enough to know exactly where the trace ends are, but the way it would have to work is when the wipers step off the 4 trace they do NOT step onto the short 7 trace.

there's two ways use traces to pay 7:
- the long 7 trace
- the 5 trace + the short 7 trace (wipers stepping off the 5 trace are then on the 7 trace so the pay keeps going two more coins).

why the pay disc and all the reel wiper wiring is complicated is messy to describe, but essentially the reel tape symbols are carefully chosen so that rather than 22 individual symbols appearing on a payline, there's 10 possible 3-symbol patterns that can appear on the top, center and bottom lines on each reel.

e.g. a cherry on reel tape 1 always has a plum on either side, so one pattern is PL-CH-PL.  Of the 22 ways the reel can index, 3 of them are PL-CH-PL.

different patterns then position the reel wipers at the spot the schem suggests (dot at left end of the box is position 10, right end position 1).

all this is needed because the wins have to be calculated depending on the number of lines enabled and you get paid the total.  Something like a line 4/5 2 cherry win with the second cherry in the middle vs on one of lines 2 or 3 may position the wipers differently because there's other non-cherry wins possible.

for example:
- a cherry on reel 1 line 3 could also have an orange win on line 2
- a cherry on reel 1 line 2 cannot have an orange win on other lines

I'll give that rotation trick a try.  And I just sent you some pics of that silver strike.

[Thephoneman]

So i discovered that the plastic pay wheel was cracked.  Luckily I had a double armed metal one on hand. Replaced it and were getting 4 on the 4th and 5 th line with a singe cherry and 7 with 2 cherries.