Bally 891-20 Super Continental wrong pay issue

[essmeier]

My always-troublesome 891-20 Super Continental is acting up again.  I usually play it in credit mode and play the maximum of 6 credits per spin.  Lately, it's been short paying about 80% of the time by one coin per credit played, so a single cherry is paying 6 when it should pay 12 and three oranges are paying 54 when they should pay 60, for example.

Five credit spins were paying correctly, so I figured that I needed to adjust the switches on the odds motor.

While trying to sort that out, something even stranger started happening, which may or may not be related.

In troubleshooting that issue, I first put it in coin play mode to see if the hopper was working correctly.   In coin mode, the machine pays winners correctly, so with six coins played, one cherry pays 12 coins, and three oranges correctly pay 60.

BUT...

Sometimes, with six coins played, the machine pays a losing combination.  When that happens, even with six coins played, it always pays exactly one coin.

This is not reproducible.  After it paid one coin for a loser with six coins played, I put stickers on the reels to mark the positions, set up another six-coin spin and stopped the reels in the same positions.  It did not pay.  I tried it a half a dozen times.  It only paid the first time.

I'd give it a few more spins, and every now and again, it just randomly pays me 1 coin for a losing combination, and if I set it up to spin again and stop on those same positions, it doesn't pay.

Something else I noticed is when it pays for losing spins, it always pays exactly one coin regardless of the number of coins played. 

Also - if I put it back in credit play mode, the random pays for losing combinations pays 6 coins with 6 credits played, rather than the one coin it pays in coin mode.  With 6 credits played, no winning combination should pay fewer than 12.

Given that these wrong payouts are not reproducible, I don't think the problem has anything to do with the wipers on the reels, which all seem to be nicely centered on their rivets.

I've attached a photo of a spin that paid one coin.  Orange-bell-cherry-orange shouldn't ever pay, but this time it did.

Just scratching my head over this one, and I'm at a loss as to how to proceed.

Charlie

[wolftalk]

do you have a variator link on reel 4 (the bar under the reel that moves the pawl to unlatch the reel wiper arm so it springs forward and stops the spin).

if yes, you can manually turn the cog on that link to make the link bar longer or shorter.  Try making it as long as possible and as short as possible.  Does your problem consistently happen at either extreme?

one possibility is the pay circuit is closing while the reel 4 wiper arm is still moving and the hopper motor is briefly turned on.  In coin mode, it turns off again pretty quickly as the wiper contact leaves the rivet that was completing the circuit, but it may be enough to get a coin out.

in credit mode, you could get a cycle of the payout cams and the associated number of credits.

the fix would be to set the variator link as short as possible ... that makes the reel 4 spin the longest ... and make sure the reel mech C-1 switch hasn't closed before reel 4 indexes.

[essmeier]

See attached photo.  Is that what you're asking about?  Only reel 4 has it that, so I assume that's the part in question.

I moved it to it's longest position and had a few pulls.  It's still paying one coin every 4-5 spins.

Any adjustment I make to it doesn't hold.  I pulled the reel mechanism back out after a few spins and it was now adjusted to its shortest position.

Sometime later...

I noticed the passing reference to the C-1 switch.  Just on a lark, I took a few spins to see what was happening with that switch and noticed something peculiar.

There is a horizontal spring that moves back past the vertical switch stack when you pull the handle.   As the reels come to a stop, the spring retracts to its original position.

I noticed that the spring was mounted in such a way that it was rubbing against the switches as it moved backwards and "fanning" them as it returned to its resting position.  Obviously, the spring shouldn't be rubbing against switches in normal operation.

I flipped the spring 180° and remounted it, and loosened the two screws on the switch stack and moved the switches slightly to the left.

The spring now misses the switches completely, though the gap is pretty narrow.  My guess is that the spring is not original and is probably somewhat larger in diameter than what was mounted at the factory.

And with that five second adjustment, the machine no longer pays losers.

Just odd all around.  I've had this machine for seven years and I have never touched that spring until today, but until this past week, it's never presented a problem. 

Photos of the link on reel four and the incorrectly and correctly mounted spring attached.

[wolftalk]

the cog is moved one tooth on the variator links move one tooth every spin, so the link length changes constantly  ... part of the randomizing of the spin result.

if the black link and stud bar and/or the spring on it are too close to the C switches, it's fair game to loosen the two screws on the C stack and twist the switches a bit further away.  As long as the peg operates the stack and the switches stay on the plastic sleeve over the peg (not touching the metal end of the peg if it's peened to retain the sleeve), you're good to go.

[essmeier]

it's fair game to loosen the two screws on the C stack and twist the switches a bit further away.

I did that and it helps, but I also had to change the way the spring was mounted.  There are mounting loops each end of the spring, but they're different on each end - one is off to the side and one is in the middle, so the orientation of the spring matters, and it was installed backwards.

The "one coin" payout problem seems to be fixed.  I'm still having problems with the machine sometimes paying 1 coin short per coin played, but I'll start a new thread about that over the weekend after I do some more testing and can provide more details.

Thanks for the help.

Charlie

[wolftalk]

when it short pays look at the payout counter and see if the wipers have stepped off the appropriate payout trace.  If they have, it may be as simple as needing to loosen the payout counter disc and twisting it a little to get the wipers on the trace end at the payout-1 step and off the trace on the = payout step.

e.g. if the pay is supposed to be 10, the wipers should be on the 10 trace when you step up the unit 9 times, and off the 10 trace end on the next/10th step.

[essmeier]

Short pay is in credit mode only; coin pay is correct.  Wipers on the pay board are behaving as they should.

As I said, I'll do some testing to make sure I can describe exactly what's happening and under what circumstances and I'll start a new thread about it.