Help with Bally 1168 Big Spender

[1168_bally]

Hello, and greetings from Vienna, Austria.

I'm a complete novice when it comes to slot machines. A friend of mine bought one two years ago, but it wasn't working. I saw the machine and immediately fell in love with the technology, which was completely foreign to me but fascinating. For the past two weeks, I've been trying to breathe new life into it. Since I quickly reached the limits of my abilities, I'm hoping to tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience in this forum.

Current status:

Replaced the bulbs, replaced the coin validator (10 Austrian Schillings) with a 20 Euro cent one, and got the handle working again.

Bally 1168 Big Spender S.Nr.:415


1. Machine on - all normal lights are on - "Insert coin" light is on.
2. Coin insertion - "Coin accepted" light is on - "Insert coin" light goes out - handle is released.
3. Action - coin accepted signal extinguished - pawl is pulled out of the gear - reels spin - reels stop - regardless of whether there's a win or not, the insert coin light illuminates, but no winnings are paid out.

Two or three times a win was detected, but an unlimited amount was paid out.
When I set a winning situation and switched the machine on, it paid out a few times, and even correctly.
After cleaning the scanning fingers and the contact plate, it stopped paying out; instead, the bell rang.

The red cam spiral is damaged at the end.
The spring that retracts the gear doesn't seem to be properly clamped, but it's also slightly bent.
The pawl is pulled out by the coil, but only falls back into place when manually released by pressure or when the coin counter arm is activated.
I can't find a device like the wiper fingers that reliably stop at the zero point when the spring retracts.
Where exactly is the zero point? Where should the outermost finger be positioned?

I also think the reel section has a loose connection, even though I've already cleaned the contacts with isopropyl alcohol.
Where should I start?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[1168_bally]

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[wolftalk]

your broken red spiral cam is a fatal problem for payout - you need a replacement.

the spiral cam controls the reset position of the wiper fingers, so when it's broken payout can't work reliably. 

the wiper contacts should reset to around the 6:00 position (see pictures in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1180/pics/ for a similar payout counter in the reset position. 

note the switch in front of the spiral cam ... it should be open when the unit is reset and closed when the unit steps up 1+ times.

the pawl behaviour is correct.  When the reset solenoid plunger pulls in, the pawls are lifted and locked above the ratchet teeth so the ratchet can spin back to reset.  When the first coin ejects and moves the step-up arm the pawls flop down onto the teeth again.

the end of the torsion spring that goes around the white plastic ratchet/gear on the payout counter unit should be u-shaped so it snaps into a groove on the peg.  Take the end off of the peg and use pliers to squeeze/bend the U-area to fix it.

I don't have any paperwork for that machine.  Do you have a schematic?

do you have a source for parts in the EU?  Afaik, the part number C-245-1 is what you need and you transfer the wipers and other bits to it from what you have.  I probably have good ones, but shipping from california is probably cost-prohibitive if you can get something on your side of the pond.

[wolftalk]

btw, check the two things marked with red arrows in attached.

the left red arrow points to a suspiciously large switch gap ... make sure the switch works right.

the right arrow points to a switch blade that may be touching a thick travel limiting bar.  While this won't functionally matter, if the current is passing thru the bar instead of thru the switch contacts, the switch blade where the bar is touching can eventually weaken and break due to arcing happening there.  Bend the thick bar where it enters the switch stack so it doesn't touch the long/moving switch blade.

if you want to email highest possible resolution pictures and/or video to slotpics@cdyn.com, I'll add them to the cdyn.com/slots/ site.  If you have too many/too large for your email client to be happy with, put them on a file sharing site and let me know where to retrieve them.

if sending from a phone, send "actual size".

[1168_bally]

Thank you for the quick and helpful reply!
I'll start investigating the red spiral tomorrow and address your other comments. Thanks again for that.
Unfortunately, I don't have a wiring diagram or any other documentation for the machine.
I'll send the photos via WeTransfer, probably not until the weekend.

[wolftalk]

ideal photos are:
- entire front of machine
- entire inside of door
- inside machine with everything installed
- all sides of the hopper and reel mech
- inside the cabinet with reel mech and hopper out
- all sides of top compartment board

if you have things disassembled like the payout counter, the contact plate board and ratchet/gear side

with all those pics it's a lot easier to suggest places to look when there's problems.

if you poke around on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/, there's bally manuals and paperwork for other machines. 

if your game is single coin, it's probably similar to a model 957-A without the progressive payout stuff, tho it may have diodes on the reel wiper boards. 

especially curious what's in the top compartment and the payouts/whatever it says on the right side of the reel glass.

[wolftalk]

thanks!

photos/video added to https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1168/

please email me your shipping address to slotpics@cdyn.com and let's see how much it costs to send you a replacement spiral cam.

someone has replaced yours already and cut the fingers off the second wiper arm.  You can just leave that arm off when transferring the parts to a new cam - it's not doing anything.

I also have an earlier style metal cam you could try ... I'm not sure if it works on later payout counter units, so I'd send you a red plastic one cam also.

[1168_bally]

I replaced the defective spiral (thanks again, Wolftalk), and this is what happens now.

Current state

Turn on the machine
`Insert coin` light illuminates
`Insert coin`
`Coin accepts coin - 1 click in the door
`Insert coin` light goes out
`Coin accepted` light comes on
`Handle is released - 1 click
`pawl opens
`Handle is pulled
`Coin accepted` light goes out
`Handle is released
`Reels spin
`Second reel stops - pawl closes
`Third reel stops - pawl opens
`Fourth reel stops - `Insert coin` light comes on
`If no win, everything starts over

`If a win is displayed, e.g., 3 cherries,` nothing happens, and you could continue playing.`

However, when I manually close the pawl, or push the payout lever the jackpot bell rings continuously until I press the coin payout lever 9 times: 19 times with 4 cherries, and once with one cherry.
It seems that the moter gets no power but the bell.

The hopper motor has a resistance of 7 ohms, and the fuse seems okay.

Where should I start looking?

Thank you.

[1168_bally]

I have a contact group on the hopper housing (I suspect the output relay) where two green wires are loose. One of the wires goes to the hopper motor. Since my hopper isn't starting or running, could this be the (or one) problem? And which contacts do these two wires belong to?
Any tips, for a newbie
Thanks

[wolftalk]

the relay on the back of the hopper in your picture is the payout relay.

typically on that era machine the two switches connected in parallel on the short switch stack have white (50) and white/blue (52) wires on them, and the 52 wire goes to the hopper motor.

your hopper motor has a green wire on one lug and a black wire on the other?

we don't have a schematic, but the wire colors are often the same on many machines.  Would need more pictures/info on what wire colors are on other switches and the hopper motor.

usually there's a 10 watt 470 ohm resistor attached to the two payout relay coil lugs.

the zero switch in front of the spiral cam on the payout counter is upside down.  The yellow and orange/black wires currently connected together in the white plastic wire crimp connector go on the zero switch blades.  It's not causing a payout issue tho ... the way it is now the payout counter reset coil is firing when it doesn't need to unless they changed wiring elsewhere.

can't tell what the wago lever connector is doing.  Looks like wires in it are going to switch blades on the vertical "open at 20" switches on the payout counter.
 

[1168_bally]

Yes, the hopper is connected with a green and a black wire. One of the green wires goes directly to the motor. The other one... I have no idea where it goes.

Something I tried:
With the machine switched off, I set a winning scenario with 3 cherries.
When I press the payout lever, the fingers move one step and the bell starts ringing. After the ninth press, the bell stops ringing, and the winning display lights up. With 4 cherries, I have to press it 19 times.

Could this mean that your observation is correct? That the wiper fingers are positioned a bit too far on the 2?

I installed the Wago connector because the solder joint was broken, but it seemed that the two yellow wires were soldered there. With the Wago connector, I have more flexibility when testing and don't have to keep soldering if something isn't right. The contacts are actuated by the locking pawl when it's pulled out of the gear, or vice versa. The red and black wire is on the other side.

What I've noticed:

There's a microswitch on the right side of the hopper that's pressed when the hopper is moved vigorously. In photos of other machines, there are usually two wires soldered to one terminal. My machine only has one.

The wires on the zero switch appear to have been deliberately cut. Why? No idea.

Why are they now hanging from the coil? No idea.

So many questions, I'm fascinated…
Thanks again for your patience.

[1168_bally]

More photos

[1168_bally]

Hi,

Thanks to woolftalk's help (thanks again!), the machine was working quite well. I converted it to accept 50 euro cents, and that seemed to work too. The only problem I had was that when I pulled the lever, sometimes the hopper would make a short movement (about after the first click (I think that's the counter) and push a coin under the pivot arm, which, to make matters worse, would sometimes get stuck. This also sometimes happened when the reels came to a stop. Just a small jerk from the hopper. Sometimes there was also a short ringing sound.

Otherwise, the payouts were correct, and when it paid out, the machine reset properly. However, if a coin got under the wheel, the winner's light would come on and stay on for several spins until a regular win was paid out, then the machine would reset and everything would work normally again.

Now, however, it suddenly won't pay out 2-coin wins anymore. Larger wins are paid out without any problems.

I cleaned the circuit boards with isopropyl alcohol, but there was no change.

What I've noticed is this:

A coil behind the reels (see picture) is immediately engaged when the machine is switched on, and activates a group of switches. This coil, although mechanically free, remains engaged as far as I can see.

If all four reels are on some (non-winning) symbols and I turn one reel slightly downwards—it could be the first, second, third, or fourth—the hopper starts spinning, dispensing coins continuously, but the counting mechanism on the gear keeps running.

This doesn't happen all the time. Maybe every third to fifth spin, but sometimes two or three times in a row.

What could be causing this?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[wolftalk]

the payout counter on the 1158 is mechanically stepped, so a coin lifting the roller pivot arm on top of the hopper will move the step-up arm on the payout counter unit.

if the step-up arm moves far enough, the pawls will flop down on the white plastic ratchet/gear teeth and a switch will close to turn on the winner paid light.

if a coin is stuck under the roller pivot arm, the payout counter can't reset properly.  if the wipers are off the end of the 2 trace, then the game won't pay 2 wins.

the relay in your picture could be a "bars match" relay ... where do the wires on the coil go to?

in any case, the hopper burping is a problem.  While we don't have a schematic for the machine, almost all bally machines rely on a reel mech C switch to stay open until all the reels are indexed.  If that switch is closed when reels haven't indexed, the payout circuit can be briefly powered as the last reel(s) are indexing.

indexing = when the reel wiper arm is released and the wipers are sliding across the wiper board until the arm bottoms out in an index disc slot.

try and adjust the C switches so they close as late as possible. You may be able to loosen the two screws fastening the C stack bracket to the reel mech side plate and twist the bracket counter-clockwise a little to move the switch blades further from the peg on the black sliding timer link.   If not, adjust the switches to close later ... especially the leftmost switch in the stack.  You can adjust it by bending the thick/kinked limit bar to the left of it so the long blade moves to the right.

in the pic below, the right red arrow is pointing at the limit bar.  The bar shouldn't be touching the blade to the left of it ... bend it limit bar so it's more like where the green line is drawn ... then you may need to adjust switches to the right to make sure they open properly.  It's looks like you're very close to it being right.

[1168_bally]

Dear wolftalk,

You're a real genius! I loosened a screw and slightly turned the C-switch. I inserted a coin, got four bars with the correct 200 coins, and then several more 2-coin wins. Everything worked as it should. After about 100 games, I haven't noticed any more burping from the hopper. Now I just need to figure out how to lock the switch.

Thanks for your expert help!

[wolftalk]

if you're lucky you can loosen the top screw and shift the top of the bracket left enough under the screw head to get a screw in the lower hole.  if not, you'll need to bend/adjust the switch blades.

your machine had the below label attached.  If it doesn't make sense, what they are talking about is:

- variator : the metal cog and bar assembly like the black horizontal bar that is operating the switch C stack in your post #14 picture.  The cog moves one tooth every spin, and it changes the length of the black bar.

- switches C, D, E : on a few games, they used [C, D, E] instead of [C-1, C-2, C-3].  So they mean the leftmost three switches in the C stack you've been looking at.  It musta been one slot designer who did that, and since the updated manuals used the stack_number-switch notation, it's confusing.

the reel 4 latch link under the reels is a variator bar.  If you spin the cog manually, you'll see the bar getting longer/shorter.  When the bar is as short as possible, reel 4 spins the longest it can before it's indexed. 

the note means they want you to spin the cog until the bar is shortest, then verify the reel mech C switches don't change state until the reel has indexed.
 

btw, the left thick limit bar in the A switch stack looks like it's touching the long blade to the left of it, but that could be the camera angle.  The problem with the limit bars touching the moving blades is the blades can weaken at the touch point and eventually crack.  Worst case is significant current flows through the join and arcing happens there, which causes the blade to heat and break a lot faster.

[1168_bally]

Hi,

After the machine worked flawlessly for several days (about 500 spins), it suddenly started paying out even though there was no winning combination. The payout began after reel 2 stopped spinning, while reels 3 and 4 were still moving. This happened every time I played. The payouts varied between 14 and 24 coins.

I suspected the adjustment mechanism under reel 4 was causing the problem. I turned the gear again, and it worked. The next day, the same problem occurred. The adjustment mechanism of the adjustment mechanism seems to be changing.

The 4 reel sometimes (very rarely) stops between 2 symbols,

A photo is attached.

[wolftalk]

payout shouldn't be possible until the reel mech C switches have returned to the after spin state.  Usually it's C-1 (the switch closest to the mounting bracket) in the main circuit you care about. 

especially if that switch has grey/red and brown wires on it, stick paper between the contacts and see if payout stops.  If it doesn't, you have a short.

when the game starts to pay, turn off the power and manually trip the handle release relay.  If you turn on the power and the game still pays, most likely you have wiper fingers bridging rivet contacts on the wiper boards.  You can loosen the screws on the wiper arms and reposition the wipers ... you especially don't want the contacts bridging to rivets above/below an arc of rivets as you may be getting a connection thru the bell circuit instead of the payout circuit.

to narrow it down, when pay starts turn off the machine and put paper under all the rivets on a wiper board and turn it on.  If it stops, pull out the paper one wiper finger at a time and see which one is doing it.

without a schem, there's a bit of guessing to do, but fortunately that machine is a simple one coin per spin, so the places a short can happen is a lot less.

if a reel stops between symbols, the mechanical bits stopping the reels are gunked up.  Especially check the roller on the index arm that going into the slots on the index disc attached to the reel, and verify if you push the arm back it snaps forward when you let go.

if the index arm seats in the bottom of a slot and kinda bounces back a little (the reel turns backwards), the spring force on the index arm should be enough to rotate the reel forward again to seat the arm roller in the bottom of the slot.

tmi

the cog/shaft thing is called a variator link, and the game moves the cog one tooth on every spin to change the length of the link.

the length of the link determines how long the reels spin, so by changing the length every spin the game is making the game more random.

what the paper label in post #15 is saying is you need to make sure that the reel mech switches that close near the end of a spin (primarily the C stack switches) don't close until after reel 4 is indexed.

since indexing reel 4 happens slowest when the variator link is shortest, they want you to manually turn the cog until the link is shortest and verify the C switches don't close too early.

the game will then change the link length as you spin, but it can only get longer or the same as where you checked it.

however, if the C switches close too early, the worst that should happen is payout starts early or you keep turning on the hopper briefly when the reel 4 wipers are moving and eventually a coin will pop out.

[1168_bally]

To be more precise:

I turn on the machine, insert the coin, pull the handle, and reels 1-4 spin. Reel 1 stops, reel 2 stops, and a payout begins, usually around 14 coins, sometimes 24. Reel 3 stops, and reel 4 stops. Even if there's no winning combination, the win light stays on.

In the next game, there's no reset, and another payout of around 14 coins occurs after reel 2 stops.

This happens even if I keep the C-1 switch open with a paper cone.

If there is a winning combination, the machine settles into its normal behavior in the following games. There's a reset, exact payouts, and no further payouts after reel 2 stops.

If I turn the machine off and on again, everything remains normal, and the machine behaves correctly. (testet for about 100 games)

However, if I remove the hopper while the machine is switched off and then reinsert it without doing anything else, it immediately starts dispensing coins after being switched on again. Then the problem with the dispensing after the second reel stops occurs again.

If I continue inserting coins, the behavior stabilizes after 5-10 coins, and it then behaves normally again.

I've uploaded a video:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pFLJGxiRXOc

[wolftalk]

ok, without a schem some guessing and testing will be needed.

the main things are why is reel 2 causing a pay circuit to complete, and how is the pay circuit being powered if C-1 has paper between the contacts:

1] what happens if you hold the handle down ... still pay?

2] the pay circuit traditionally has a series switch connection from coin switch -> reel mech A-1 -> reel mech C-1 -> handle release relay switch as shown in the schem chunk below.  In the second pic below of your reel mech switches, C-1 has a green/white wire (45) on it, which should be in the 6V bell circuit.

it appears the switch you care about is C-2 .... the one with grey/red (91) -> brown (60).   What happens if you stick the paper in that switch?

they may have done this to further delay when the pay circuit is active since C-1 closes first as the peg pushes the stack.  C-2 thru C-4 more or less all close at the same time after C-1 closes.

while the schem below is the most common wiring, there's a lot of games with minor differences.

3] can't tell what wire colors are on reel mech A-1 and A-2 from the picture below

4] if you put a piece of paper between the wipers and contact plate on reel 2 and/or reel 3 wiper boards, does the pay stop?

5] you have an unused switch on reel mech A stack that looks like it had wires on it and a screw terminal block and odd wiring on a relay next to reel 4.  May need to figure those out.